To feel totally ignorant about racism

[IcingandSlicing]

In that topic the other day I've learned that I am totally ignorant about racism. I had no idea that comments about hair for example that could be totally not ill meant could strike such a deep chord among other people
Or is it the comment itself or the way it was made - by the tone of voice etc nonverbal information you get from people - that makes it racist?
Or just some comments people make regarding kids like cheeky monkey for epinstance (there are tees with this) could be seen as racist?
I'm at a lost to be honest.
I've probably offended many people without even knowing about it.
I'd assume that in 2016 people would feel equal no matter how they look and not take offense from random comments.
Aibu to think that I'd better keep away from black people in case I'd say something that would offend them? (I mean I can say whatever negative thing I want about blond haired people, red haired people, black haired people, people who colour their hair, people who don't colour their hair, people who have thin hair, people who have thick hair, etc, but I feel like with black people it's likely to strike a deeper chord than ever intended and I am ignorant enough not to understand the history behid that makes it worse.)
And sorry about that I really don't mean to offend. Just to understand.

[Baconyum]

Agree I've met people think they're not racist because they have Jewish friends, but have treated non-whites appallingly, I think that shows even more that they're racist.

Zac goldshit I agree wtf was he thinking?! Even without the family connection London is a big city with a massive variety of people resident from all over the world and Brits of all backgrounds living there, and a long long history of immigrants heading there, prejudice of any kind was going to go down like a lead balloon!!

[UmbongoUnchained]

Funnily enough I was out at lunch today and the waitress had an accent. This couple on the table next to us kept asking her where she was from. She kept saying Cornwall where she lives but they were not happy with that answer. Eventually she caved and told them she was from Romania but hadn't lived there for about 20 years. The couple looked really pleased with themselves and the waitress looked totally pissed off.

[TeaAddict235]

But the respect needs to cut both ways; Amy Poehler is of jewish heritage, would she be ok with another comedienne making a joke out of her heritage? Also with the Charlie Hebdo, most of the murdered victims from the editorial team were also of jewish background, according to the local press, and as such there was anxiety that the attack was anti-Semitic. Would they have been ok for a joke about someone of their background to be on the front pages just as they have had offended muslims and Christians and Arabs and..... and.....and etc. It's not ok just to be PC about one race but give all others the go ahead because they are of another heritage.

Zac Goldshit is an idiot, his sister was Mrs Imran Khan not too long ago, and is often photographed fraternising with people of Asian backgrounds at swanky parties etc. Did he really think that the 'old race card' was a wise move? Apparently money can't always educate.

[123lekl]

Indeed and I think this particular lady had experienced racist comments before about her ethnicity and religion

[UmbongoUnchained]

I think some people are over sensitive but understandably so.

[123lekl]

If someone asks me where I'm from I say "Hackney".
That was the response I was expecting (or equivalent) when I asked the question to the lady at work and I got the opposite reaction assuming I was referring to her ethnicity.

[UmbongoUnchained]

I'd say do whatever makes you comfortable then.

[drspouse]

The older one is 4 so can tell you where he's from, but tends to be a bit oblivious - if people ask me questions he doesn't take much of an interest, boring adult talking I think. He likes to talk to family about his origins, one to one.

[UmbongoUnchained]

It's entirely up to you and what you feel comfortable with.
I don't get offended by half the things others do but appreciate that some do. Are they old enough to answer themselves? If so then let them decide how much detail they want to go into.

[drspouse]

They weren't born here but are British now.
It's more about assumptions, no problem with friends knowing some of their history but not random people.

[UmbongoUnchained]

Yes tell them they're British if that's what they are. If someone asks me where I'm from I say "Hackney".
Although if they ask where I hail from I don't mind telling them. I don't think there's anything to be offended by by someone taking an interest in where I'm from originally.

[drspouse]

I have a real conflict about what to say when people ask where my DC are "from", or comment on one of their colouring.
They were adopted from overseas (same country), the older one knows where they are both from and will happily tell you but there are lots of British people who look v similar to both of them.
The question of where they are from comes both with an assumption that adopted children are "from" somewhere and that brown skinned people are "from" somewhere (untrue in both cases).
WIBU to tell strangers "they're British"?

[123lekl]

What I would also add is that I am of mixed ethnicity, although I'm white, and actually find comments about my family's background incredibly offensive- even though no one would necessarily realise they were offending me.
So it's probably a good thing to remember to always think before you speak, not just when you know there's someone there who might be offended as heritage/ background isn't always obvious to look at people.

[123lekl]

I offended someone many years ago by asking where they were from. I meant which part of London (!) but she had a huge rant at me about it. I felt slightly pissed off as I dont think I deserved her rant on my first day at work (I was trying to be friendly!) but also it made me think about how tiring it must be for her (she explained people assume she's from pakistan), and I see that it can be an ignorant racist question (whereas in my case it was a genuinely interested question as I'd just moved to the area!)
I can't think of another example in my own life like that, despite living and working in large diverse cities, but in future I think I'd adapt the question to clarify what I meant 'which part of London are you from/ do you live in?' etc. to avoid accidental offence.

[IPityThePontipines]

Moonstruck - if you look at any of the refugee threads on here, you would read many people who don't want to help Syrian children because they come from an "inferior culture" and are actually not children, but young men pretending to be children.

[moonstruckl8]

Really good points quencher, I also noticed how coverage on refugees switched from black East africans in the 'jungle' - - at Calais to Caucasian looking Syrians as well. It was so fast I noticed how it became about family groups rather than black young men from the Sudan or Eritrea. I think Syrians were also the focus because they're safe to mention, talk about the many Iraqi and afghan refugees trying to come in and that may cause some discomfort considering the wars of the last decade. But Syrians, well we had nothing to do with syrias conflict so helping them is pure benevolence.

Thanks drspouse. It gets wearing and I thought I was immune to it by now. It's almost better to stay mediocre, not to shine too much at work lest you provoke the reaction of 'she's getting too uppity and needs cutting down to size'. This person was nice enough to me when I was lesser but when I seemed to gain something over them out came the sly just-a-joke racism.

It's a very sad thing but sometimes you wont know someone's a racist until their back is up against the wall and they're all out of options. Like zac goldsmith, Eco friendly, nice liberal respected MP, but when he was losing in the mayoral race, nothing else going for him policy wise, out came the White man's race card ' I'm white, im safe, he's not white, he's not safe'.

[quencher]

Moonstruck what you have just posted opens up a can of warms in terms of discussions on BAME children and how they are portrayed in everyday media.
Apart from the two that you have mentioned. I remember the Charlie hebdo one and thinking at the time that they should not have used an innocent child for point scoring. At around the same time, the picture of the dead children appearing in the news is what made the media change peoples minds about how racist they were being. The coverage changed to how they should help. People started to realise there are people behind those sinking boat stories. The stories also changed from just only showing mostly Eritreans to only Syrians at Calais. The channel that starts with B six o'clock news and ten. I remember this because I could not believe the double standard and how it switched over night. Most people would not have noticed this at all. I remember telling my dh about it. He hadn't even noticed it.

The ones that drive me nuts is the children used for charity adverts. The double standard is unbelievable. Most people would not see anything wrong with them, the fact is you would never see a British child in real poverty being used. They would always find actors. They would be paid for it and their parents would have consented. The children used and objects anyone can do with what ever they want. They have no Legal rights nor do they have any human rights. It's fair game from any European or Americans.

The difference between BAME children death's or disappearance and how it's treated in the media is shocking. I remember someone once saying if you ever want to be found, be a little girl with blonde hair and blue eyes.

I do remember the blue ivy one too. It made me feel sick. The comedians way of thinking you would have thought it's been done with.

[drspouse]

Moonstruck I'm so sorry to hear that happened to you. It must be so wearing.

[moonstruckl8]

But sometimes racism isn't the direct bnp style 'black people are lesser'. It can also be saying things or justifying things which would never be said if the person was white. One good example was the way Amy poehler had that joke in her show about Beyoncé's daughter blue ivy being near old enough to be urinated on by R kelly. It was a hideous joke, was said for the shock factor, meant to be ironic etc but would that joke have been made about a three year old girl if she was white?
www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2015/08/19/amy-poehlers-difficult-people-slammed-for-blue-ivy-r-kelly-joke-heres-why-its-extremely-meta/

Likewise, Charlie hebdo using the image of the dead toddler washed up on the beach as a joke on their front pages.insisted that Wasnt racism it was subtle liberal satire. Never mind that the joke was little aylan might have ended up a sexual abuser in Cologne so just as well he's dead. www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/13/a-new-charlie-hebdo-cartoon-portrays-dead-3-year-old-refugee-aylan-kurdi-as-a-sexual-attacker-in-germany/. But a dead white European child would never have been made fun of like that.

Racism sometimes creeps up from someone you never expected, I had a recent ting happen to me at work and though I had witnesses they fell over themselves to try to assure me it wasn't racist just stupid thoughtlessness. Even though I found out later that they agreed between themselves it was a racist thing that was said. It reduced me, who considers herself quite emotionally resilient and strong, to crying in the toilets from the humiliation of the remark. It was something that made me realise that even though I considered myself respectable, married, educated, middle class, gainfully employed, in the eyes of some people black is still lesser and myself and my children are not worthy of dignity like a white person's would have been. But I knew that I couldn't make a complaint about it because the colleague who said it was very popular and it would have made the work atmosphere very toxic. Plus I was very conflicted myself as this colleague had been very good to me in the past so I decided better to leave than make a complaint or carry on like nothing happened.

[quencher]

I see what you mean ceecee. It's also sounds like she gets on the defence mode. I hate it when people say "is it because I is black" I have a friend who does that in a jokey way when people have been unintentionally racist. It seems to break the ice in order for her to correct them. Usually when people have asked, how come you speak very good English. Or have always spoken good English, all of you look the same (this was from a teacher).

You also have people who will get on the self defence mode at all times even when they are with black people. My mum used to have a friend like this and found her draining. Mum said it was not the friends fault she was the way she is. It's the place and how she grew up in Germany surrounded by racism.

The last time they parted ways was at the cinema when she stood up in the middle of the screening and shouted abuse because of the way the black girl in the movie was being treated.



I would ignore. If it starts to get to you ask her to explain her self.

[Atenco]

Maybe she is just an arse, looking for a fight

[UmbongoUnchained]

ceecee she just sounds like a dick to be honest, nothing to do with her race.

[FutureGadgetsLab]

Ceecee that is utterly bizarre.

[drspouse]

I imagine she has had a lot of people say "oh how lucky you are, you already look tanned". Which must get pretty boring. Rather like the "where are you from?" question.
So, if you say something, a colleague gets offended, you are not really sure why but they seem upset - maybe best just to shrug and say "hmm, I'll file that under 'not received well,' I'll leave it alone next time"

[ceecee32]

One example springs to mind that I was moaning that I hated to get my legs out in the summer as they were so pale white and that people would hardly ever see me in a dress in the summer. Only wear a dress in winter with thick tights
No mention of anyone else.

The response was that 'I suppose you are saying its OK to show my flesh because I am dark.

She describes others as being dark, light, mixed but woe betide anyone else say the same thing - its wrong then,


Lots of little examples - I just ignore them now.