To feel totally ignorant about racism

[IcingandSlicing]

In that topic the other day I've learned that I am totally ignorant about racism. I had no idea that comments about hair for example that could be totally not ill meant could strike such a deep chord among other people
Or is it the comment itself or the way it was made - by the tone of voice etc nonverbal information you get from people - that makes it racist?
Or just some comments people make regarding kids like cheeky monkey for epinstance (there are tees with this) could be seen as racist?
I'm at a lost to be honest.
I've probably offended many people without even knowing about it.
I'd assume that in 2016 people would feel equal no matter how they look and not take offense from random comments.
Aibu to think that I'd better keep away from black people in case I'd say something that would offend them? (I mean I can say whatever negative thing I want about blond haired people, red haired people, black haired people, people who colour their hair, people who don't colour their hair, people who have thin hair, people who have thick hair, etc, but I feel like with black people it's likely to strike a deeper chord than ever intended and I am ignorant enough not to understand the history behid that makes it worse.)
And sorry about that I really don't mean to offend. Just to understand.

Tea, yes and the whole this community and that community. Ugh.

For scared, the shivering chicken of highgate is famous worldwide. perhaps we should do an mn nifghtwatch at Pond Square
strangeco.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/newspaper-clipping-of-day.html

I'm white from London, but of Mediteranean descent. People of all colours often ask where my family are from originally. It doesn't bother be at all. I think it's just because people are nosey/ interested and like to place people.
I sometimes ask people (white, black, brown, olive) what there heritage is because it's interesting and people often like to talk about it.

I'm a black woman & I get asked all sorts of questions that a lot of other posters have mentioned. But, here's the thing: when you are asked the same questions for almost 35 years of your life, it gets tiresome. I get that people are curious & I also get that people are, perhaps, trying to make small talk. The thing is, all of these questions are googleable (is that even a word? And, secondly, I would feel really strange googling anything about a white person, albeit their appearance/hair, etc. Which brings me to the last point is that all this curiosity smacks of 'other'. People seem to be so intrigued by the 'other'. Why?

Calm, exactly. There's always a sense that the people asking want to be a told a story from a far away land and that they don't even consider that I'm not "other" I'm the same as them.

I do think there was a bit of a thing, maybe in the 1990s, when it was considered polite to ask about a perceived idea of someone being from another culture. I hated it then, but it seems extraordinary that nearly 30 years later, it still happens. I don't have kids but if I did I imagine they would be asked the same questions.

I'm reading with interest and learning lots. Many thanks to the people who have written about their experiences.

Kate "I think people are interested in 'other' when they are genuinely interested in learning about what they don't know about or encounter. "

Um...thing with that, I've lived in London my whole life. It's obviously very diverse. So people surely can't be thinking, I've never met a Londoner who isn't white, I must ask this person about their heritage? and why would they see me as "other" in the first place? Just because of the colour of my skin? How depressing.

"Aibu to think that I'd better keep away from black people in case I'd say something that would offend them? (I mean I can say whatever negative thing I want about blond haired people, red haired people, black haired people, people who colour their hair, people who don't colour their hair, people who have thin hair, people who have thick hair, etc, but I feel like with black people it's likely to strike a deeper chord than ever intended and I am ignorant enough not to understand the history behid that makes it worse.)
And sorry about that I really don't mean to offend. Just to understand."

I find your Aibu incredibly disingenuous, OP.

I'm slightly bemused at the notion that people should just not be offended at hearing the same othering comments over and over again, and even more so at the idea that racism isn't a thing any more.

At my school, there were a group of lads who painted swaztikas, '88' and 'Combat 18' on their bags. After leaving school, some of those guys hospitalised a white guy because he had dreadlocks, which they said was 'a coon hairstyle'. One was jailed for attempted murder and arson because he'd set fire to a corner shop, with the Indian owner and his family sleeping in the flat above. Those guys would be in their early-mid 30s now. I doubt that they've all suddenly become decent human beings.

In the 2000s, I worked with a (young) woman who said that black people were 'genetically pre-disposed towards violence' and that it was because 'they're so much closer to chimps and gorillas than we are, just look at them'. I was horrified, but it goes to show that she felt so comfortable in her attitudes that she thought that it was OK to say that to me. She'd got kids, so god knows what they were picking up from her (although hopefully nothing, my mom's racist and both my brother and I hate it).

There have been numerous studies that show that job applicants with a 'typically non-white' sounding name (eg Tyrone, Jamal, Shanice, Mohammed, etc) are far less likely to be called into for interview over a 'white' sounding applicant, even when the CVs are identical (in certain fields, you get double the fun if you're also a woman).

Racism is sadly alive and kicking in 2016.

Charley, perhaps you are younger than me, but trust me, being mediterranean in the 1970's meant being spat at, called paki, being told to 'play the white man' on the hockey pitch, netball court, being stopped by the police at lot more often than friends and being beaten up by the NF. This was nice, middle class South London.
We now live in the wilds of East Anglia, dd has for years been pointing out the where Pakistan/China/Hong Kong and Spain are on maps.

Writeforfun; as I said in a pp, it isn't just people with non-white skin in London, who are asked about their heritage. I'm (sort of) white I get asked about my heritage a lot (in London). It's not just 'English' people that ask. And people just from other parts of the UK, white and non-white, get asked about their origins.
I think people like to be able to 'place' people. Obviously there are questions and there are questions, but most of the time I think it's just interest/ conversation, or even a roundabout way of trying to find a common ground.

Dawn I was born in 1970. In my area in north London, there were a lot of Greek and Turkish people. The worst I was ever called was a bubble... Bubble and squeak - Greek, Cockney rhyming slang.
I think there was a thing about hairy Greeks, some Greek girls were teased for having mustaches. I don't know if that is racist, or body shaming, any girl who didn't/ doesn't fit a beauty ideal will be teased or bullied about it at some point.

* Charley heritage is different to "where are you from". And I bet white posters get even that question much less often. Would you really ask e.g. a new colleague their heritage if their name is Smith and they appear white? Or only if it's Garcia, or if they have brown skin?

In my opinion racism depends on the meaning behind it. If some randomer judges me or makes a comment about me then I tend to take it personally and get offended.

My husband calls me his caramel princess which I obviously don't take offence to as he thinks I'm beautiful and he would never dream of hurting me.

Recently a 'family friend' of my husbands brother asked if my dad (who is black) spoke 'nigger'... Well I'm sorry but this is quite clearly racism at its best. My dad is actually very well educated, has lived in England since he was 20 and speaks English and French fluently. If you are intending to hurt or criticise sometime based on their culture, race, colour of whatever, then yes you are racist. To think you need to stay away from black people so as not to offend them is ridiculous

As I said earlier Charley, where are you from is, in itself fine. The follow up questions as a prelude to othering, are not. It is rude to tell my dd she looks asian because she has dark skin, it is racist and was racist to refer to me as paki when I was young. It's fucking rude to say 'oh where did you get your olive skin from?
If people accepted 'London' as an answer, I really wouldn't find a problem with it. 'Placing' someone from anywhere other than where they have told you is rude.

What annoys me is when people ask where I'm from and I reply England. Then they say 'Yes but where originally?'
Erm, England! Can I not be from England just because I'm not white?!

Dawndonnaagain I completely agree

I think people are interested in 'other' when they are genuinely interested in learning about what they don't know about or encounter.

Yes, but it's not BAME people's job to continually educate random people they meet who ask them a string of questions. Any more than it is my job, as a UK-dwelling Irish woman, to remain polite and answer strings of questions from total strangers about whether we have electricity/fridges/Sky tv in rural Ireland, was my childhood like Angela's Ashes, did my parents not have contraception, why haven't I lost my 'brogue', did I have family in the IRA, how did 'someone like you' get to Oxbridge - which then sometimes segues into 'I've never understood the border/IRA/ troubles in Northern Ireland - can you explain them to me?'

No, I can't actually. Not when it's frequently covered in the press, eminently googleable, and I'm not interested in giving you material for your 'Oh, I met an Irish woman at X's party, and do you know she came from a terribly deprived background and still got a DPhil, and she told me all about the IRA' schtick.

I too have learned stuff on this thread but wanted to ask a question about Beyoncé. Last week on (Jimmy Kimmel I think) tv there was a sketch about The day Beyoncé turned black. What I wanted to ask was what did Beyoncé do/say that led people to see her as white?

I didn't know there was a sketch, but given that Beyoncé recently launched a highly political song about being black in the US with a team of backing dancers dressed in Black Panther costumes at the Superbowl, I imagine it's a spoof on how mainstream white audiences had not previously had to consider her race.

What I wanted to ask was what did Beyoncé do/say that led people to see her as white?

KateinKorea Beyonce has never done/said anything to present herself as white.

The Saturday Night Live skit plays off the idea that, for years, people have unconsciously been perceiving her as racially neutral. She's been a performer from a young age, and has generally been marketed as cheerful/feisty/sexual, but never particularly challenging; few of her earlier songs touch on issues that many people would rather ignore. She sings about love and generic empowerment.

Black artists who do mention race issues are often stigmatised as being difficult, irrationally confrontational, 'too sensitive', angry, hectoring, and only of niche appeal. It's probably black female performers who get the least leeway on this, since women expressing anger are difficult or unstable, whereas guys at least get respect for being a wild card or outspoken.

There's a bit in the SNL sketch where a woman's friend says to her '...but I'm black' and she says 'no, you're not... you're like, my girl'. And then she looks at a guy standing on the street corner, wearing a cap and combat jacket, and adds something like 'I know he's black'. It's satirising the way plenty of people aren't overtly racist (and would be mortified to seem that way), but mentally divide African Americans into neutral ('you're like, my girl') and 'black', ie different, impoverished, potentially threatening, 'ghetto', hostile, poorly educated, using distinct speech patterns, socially and culturally separate... a million different things, very few of them positive.

When someone perceived as 'neutral' starts a) mentioning their heritage in a specific way -- not explaining it, for other people's amusement or interest, but actually referring to it using cultural references other people may not even understand, and b) pointing out inequalities or c) complaining about real difficulties and injustices... it can freak people out. Like the hysterical fake-movie title, they're 'turning black'. There's been a huge uproar in the States about Beyonce's Formation track, and Superbowl performance, and then the whole album.

I think the op was out to stir up mischief.

However, i do often ask people where they are from if i'm getting to know them. I live in a big town that is full of folk from elsewhere. So i will ask folk with foreign accents, i'll also ask white folk with british accents - as many aren't from the area. I'm white and get asked it all the time.

I do think twice about asking a non white person with a british accent as i understand they might think i mean "originally from".

Back to ginger persecution. I think that some people might be careful about being overtly racist but they can be PC and make fun (or much worse) of ginger hair and pale, freckly skin. This Guardian article gives a taste of the violence and abuse directed at ginger hair people.
I think there is some evidence that ginger haired people (pale,freckly skin , pale eyelashes etc) are most frequently found in Scotland/Ireland.
The fun/abuse/violence directed towards ginger haired people is unacceptable. I hate throwaway abusive terms such as 'ginger minger'. I've heard them used widely too.

I haven't seen the Beyonce sketches referred to but tbh I find that kind of thing disappointing. It feels like more proof that some people are obsessed with race and skin colour and I don't understand why. Race and "culture" are just things people made up to fit others into boxes. I put "culture" in inverted commas because I often don't even know what people mean.

I think the op wanted to be goady, but this is a useful discussion and if the op was genuine, there is one way in which I agree, all of this has become loaded. But if you treat everyone the same, it doesn't come up. Accidental offence is unlikely in normal everyday speech. But if people just think for five minutes and don't ask personal or downright stupid questions, a lot of these problems would be solved.

I know you get some people in the UK who still want to say "I'm French" even though the last of their line was born in France in 1200, but why not let them tell you that stuff instead of asking?

If you doubt that monkey stereotypes are alive and well just take a look at the comments made when Malia Obama got into Harvard.

Or indeed the 'birthers' who tied themselves in all sorts of illogical knots claiming that Barack Obama was born in Kenya despite it being clear he was born in Hawaii. The clear subtext being that a black man will never be American enough to be President in their eyes. A scarily high number of the population still think he was born in Kenya despite all evidence to the contrary.

Non of the previous (white) Presidents faced demands to produce birth certificates etc and isn't significant that a white Canadian-born candidate hasn't received the same level of aggressive questioning about whether his foreign birth renders him eligible for the presidency.