AIBU to wonder what Brighton council are playing at asking 3 and 4 year olds their gender?

[SwearyKnickers]

Ds 4 identifies as a sausage. Although he sometimes goes by squish and cuddlemonkey. He hasn't sorted his pronouns yet. We better get on with it.. he's starting school in Sept...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-36092812

^^ god yes this

although driven by a deeply misogynistic hateful agenda

dd has a friend who is anorexic. She is receiving treatment, not being fucking indulged at every opportunity.

If eating disorders were treated like gender dysphoria, she'd be reassured that she'd just been 'born in the wrong body' and given lipo and a gastric band.

The trans movement is so damaging that I really feel it can't go on forever. More and more people are seeing it for the bullshit that it is.
In 50 years time they'll look back on this with horror.

Maybe it's got something to do with having far too many people, too few descent jobs and nowhere where south to go to?

I don't think those who see it for what it is are in a position to stop the decisions like this. The Mum won't complain and hides her identity, that tells you free speech is on its way out. How many people tried to stop Trump speak freely? Universities are no platforming too. Scary times.

Good points - well said Bleary and WellErr

CBBC are at it too...
www.transgendertrend.com/uk-cbbc-childrens-tv-i-am-leo/

There's been so much informed and reasonable discussion in this thread as to how damaging this action will be and the whole transactivism in general - I simply saw it as nonsense but am realising actually it's a very dangerous flood gate!

Great posts sweary and WellErr

All this form does is openly acknowledge that that might not be such a simple thing for some people to do

It is entirely simple. Is your child male or female. 99.99% of parents will be able to answer this in perfect confidence- yes even parents of intersex children who may have atypical genitals but most of the time will still be categorised as male or female without difficulty.

There is no such thing as a cis kid. Children don't have gender identities. Nobody is born with a gender identity. Children develop them over time - some will conform to societal norms and some won't. Pathologising very young children as having gender identity disorders before they even understand what gender,'society, the world is about is absolutely harmful to ALL children.

One of the 'problems' is that if you ask a 3 year old they are pretty likely to id as an animal or opposite sex. They are not going to grow up to be that though.
This is a problem with using gender to mean sex. Why not just ask their star sign ffs

Why not just ask their star sign ffs

The star sign they identify as you fucking bigot

Maybe that's why the cbbc show was called I AM Leo

If i lived there I would be seriously thinking of home Ed. But then I was quite open to that idea anyway.

Otherwise I would try and find other naysayers and complain about this intrusion by political nanny statism.

( I used to be a Labour voter but I think the left as a whole have lost the plot along with parts of the liberal end of the Tories!)

My 4 yo dd insists she's a unicorn princess but lives in clothes she's stolen from her big brother. Where would I put her?

Another anti-trans thread on MN. What a surprise.

I know 2 trans kids. Both knew they were trans very early on. This thread makes very upsetting reading for any parent of a trans child or anyone who cares about trans kids.

I do comment on these threads because ( like a surprising number of posters here It seems) I did not " identify as a girl" growing up. I believe I might have been confused enough to go down the trans route. As it is in my day it was just assumed by the right-on of the day that I must be a lesbian.

(I am from a family with ASD members maybe that was relevant?)

I would venture to say that most people didn't necessarily identify with their gender growing up.

I had short hair, wore biys clothes, played with biys, and tried to pee standing up. I also tried to adopt a boys name. I was called gender-bender and man-woman in school.

I am a woman. I wouldn't say I identify as a woman, I just am one.

A girl who wears jeans all the time doesn't necessarily identify as a boy. I wear jeans all the time and don't identify as a man.

Stephanie absolutely nailed it, well done her. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if she gets harassed because of it though.

I'd also like to reiterate what MrsKCastle said upthread:
The message that we should be sending is: 'We can't change your biology. If you were born a boy, you can't ever be pregnant. If you were born a girl, you can't ever become biologically male. But no matter what biological sex you are, you can choose what to wear, what to play with, what job to do and no one should EVER discriminate against you, bully you or prevent you from making your own choices. And if this ever happens, others will stand up with you and fight for your rights.'

Pingu
I care about trans kids. I also care about boys who like to wear pink and girls who like to play football, and who are told they are trans. I have no doubt that some gender non-conforming kids will later come to the conclusion that they are trans, and I hope they'll get the support they need to transition (if they wish), and to live peacefully and happily.

Some kids won't though, and I worry that these kids will end up just as confused and damaged as a trans kid who wasn't allowed to discover their own identity.

When my son was about 3 years old, he loved to dress up in his sister's Disney Princess nightgown. He slept in a nightgown every night for months. We didn't make anything of it, we just let him be, and in time he stopped. At the same time, there was a little boy in his nursery who wore girls' clothes all the time. He identified as a girl, and his family accepted him as he was. We've lost touch now, but it would not surprise me in the slightest if he was now living as a transgirl. I can't tell you why I feel this way - just that there was something different about the way he presented himself. It wasn't the clothes, it was the way he described himself. The way he presented himself in the group, in his family.

Just as we let my son be who he was and discover himself, this boy's family did the same. They didn't try to persuade him that he was trans, or worry that he was gay. They just let him be. His mum said to me that he likes playing with 'girl toys' but she doesn't think of them like that. They are just toys, and if he likes them, that's fine.

(Before I'm accused of anything, I'm not misgendering him, as I don't know if he is now trans, just talking of how he was when I knew him).

Why do we have to stick a label on kids so early? Why not just allow them to be themselves, and to discover what and who they are. We can do that by allowing girls and boys to play with all toys, instead of restricting them to blue and pink. There is no reason for classes to be split into boy/girl section. It only teaches kids that engineering is for boys and creativity is for girls.

The message that we should be sending is: 'We can't change your biology. If you were born a boy, you can't ever be pregnant. If you were born a girl, you can't ever become biologically male. But no matter what biological sex you are, you can choose what to wear, what to play with, what job to do and no one should EVER discriminate against you, bully you or prevent you from making your own choices. And if this ever happens, others will stand up with you and fight for your rights.'

Absolutely.

It's disturbing to think that a small child - a child too small to have a proper understanding of what biological sex or gender really means - may be labelled as transgender because they like things typically associated with the other sex. And yes, I think this could be damaging to children.
I'm also a woman, who as a child, would have said I wanted to be a boy. Not because I'm transgender, but because I perceived certain boy's toys, boy's activities and boys opportunities as being more desirable than those associated with what's normal and acceptable for girls.

As an aside, DS1 (4) was insistent that he was a train this morning.

Pseudo341 Re "I really don't see the fuss. It's perfectly normal to state whether your child is male or female on a form." This form is not asking if you child is male or female, I am sure that information could be available to the school when you first register and it is a biological fact. The school is asking about 'gender' and how your child identifies and this is dangerous bullshit. Lots of children identify as dinosaurs or cats, we don' take it seriously. It's pushing children into boxes they don't need to be in.

toomuchtooold Re "I'm confused as to why anyone thinks they need to explain this to their 3- or 4- year old. Just fill in the form!" The idea that people whil identify differently to their biological sex at such a young age is the trouble, a presumtion that this is something kids need to 'choose'. IMHO the parents could all send the form back blank and ask for a form that says sex - 'female' or 'male'.

"... if they're not happy identifying with the gender that society associates with them, you'll already know."

What exactly does this all mean? What is my gender, I am female, does this mean I like pink - no I like green, does this mean I wear skirts and dresses, no mostly trousers, does this mean I am more likely to be paid less, to feel fearful walking alone at night - yes, yes, that what gender does for me, so I don't want to identify with gender, thanks, but it doesn't make me a male.

PinguForPresident re "Another anti-trans thread on MN. What a surprise."

I know, of course, you are being sarcastic, but really it should not be a surprised because this is a safe place to air views and thoughts anonymously. If you try and discuss these views on Facebook you are on the receiving end of abuse from people! So please don't be surprised that people are looking for safe spaces to share information on this, because it is a very serious issue and discussion is being shut down by trans activities all over the place! As well as by well meaning people who are trying to be liberal-minded by trampling on other people's right to speak freely!

Re "I know 2 trans kids. Both knew they were trans very early on. This thread makes very upsetting reading for any parent of a trans child or anyone who cares about trans kids."

I care about trans kids, I don't want any one to be hurt or undermined. At all.

If you are worried about trans kids, please be worried that middle-aged me who identify as women later in life are hijacking this debate and forcing their own agenda on society. Forcing society to see them as women despite the fact they are biologically male and using trans kids to further their own goals.

Maybe some kids now identifying as trans kids are genuinely trans, some will be 'gender non-confirming, but actually many of us are actually gender non-conforming as we don't want to be associated with the ideas around what it means to be 'a woman' or to be a 'man'!

Maybe in general these trans identifying kids will grow up to be gay. Just let them be and see what happens.

'That sentence is basically the problem with transactivism in a nutshell. They do just see women as 'cunts' and they do just want women to 'shut the fuck up' because the narrative and wants of the Trans lobby should always override those of women.'

Absolutely. Such vile nasty sentiments.

Like other posters, I thought in the last few years that we were slowly moving away from gender stereotyping, and that a lot of people were realising how ridiculous it was to expect all little girls to play princesses and all little boys to play with trains, or whatever. It is totally ridiculous nonsense to suggest that a child who doesn't conform to what is expected of their gender, or even requests changes associated with the other gender, like cutting their hair short, or wearing frilly dresses or whatever, is expressing a serious interest in actually becoming the other gender. As other posters said, 3 and 4 year olds often decide to identify as a dog, or dinosaur, or cat, or sausage. Its playing FFS, exploring, pushing boundaries. Adults need to be staying calm in the face of all this perfectly normal behaviour and not labelling or panicking or devising special options on forms.

I'd be really genuinely interested to hear from anyone who can tell me what reception teachers will do differently in primary school for a child who 'ticks the third box'?

This is all about identity, that's massive, I think as a society we need to get to grips with it. It carries with it so much more. When I was a teenager we could be punks or whatever we could identify how we wanted but we could change, we could be one thing one day and change. The issue here is the child can be set on a path that is very hard to change, that can lead to a lifetime of feeling not at home in their own body.

We definitely need protection and care for trans kids but we do not need to project this onto the rest of the population. Because things that are about identity are easily transferable. And all those women, up thread, saying I didn't identify as a girl or feel at home being a girl (when younger), who I am sure (because of the context here) grew up to be just normal women, might have been pathologisted and turned into trans kids if they were presenting now how they did back then.

It's good people can be a supportive and good friend to trans kids and their parents but I think we need to be aware this emphasis on gender is harmful, it is exactly because of children that those of us posting about this on mumsnet are worried.

Personally, I don't give a hoot what colour a child likes, what dolls they play with, whether it is an Action man doll or a Barbie... expect I notice we have clothes-conscious Barbie and Ken and Action man but who has heard of GI Jane. She does exist but if you look at this link it is little boys not playing with her and grown men collecting her, no mention of girls at all

www.joeaday.com/g-i-jane-2006/

So gender is all around us forcing us into roles we don't want and didn't choose. It is not just an issue for a handful of trans kids, it is an issue for everyone and shutting down debate on this happens a lot! Thank goodness for mumsnet!