Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to wonder what Brighton council are playing at asking 3 and 4 year olds their gender?

165 replies

SwearyKnickers · 20/04/2016 21:44

Ds 4 identifies as a sausage. Although he sometimes goes by squish and cuddlemonkey. He hasn't sorted his pronouns yet. We better get on with it.. he's starting school in Sept...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-36092812

OP posts:
BombadierFritz · 21/04/2016 00:24

Apparently there is a very big increase in teen girls opting out of their gender - cant really blame them tbh :(

TravellingLoon · 21/04/2016 00:30

Hmm, it feels people are getting a tad hysterical here... I'm pretty sure no one is suggesting everyone ask their 4 year olds what they identify as, there would be absolutely no need if the child had never mentioned it. I'm guessing the tick box is there for children who have already voiced opinions about feeling different in their bodies. And then, as many have pointed out, that can change, but maybe it would help the teachers at school deal with any issues he or she is exhibiting?

I have a 4 year old and I would have absolutely no need to even broach the subject with them, as the concept would be completely alien to them. But it may not be to others. I don't think it's going to label or stigmatise them for life necessarily, assuming the information is there for just monitoring purposes and not 'steering' purposes iyswim.

BombadierFritz · 21/04/2016 00:31

'Hysterical' is a rather sexist word to use. Could you clarify

ReallyTired · 21/04/2016 00:33

Maybe there is a child who is a hermaphrodite living in Brighton. The parents will fill in the form. Its really a non issue. Most pre school children cannot read so would neither know nor care.

ReallyTired · 21/04/2016 00:35

Reasons a parent might tick the other box.

www.newhealthadvisor.com/Hermaphrodite-Human-Pictures.html

BombadierFritz · 21/04/2016 00:35

A much better solution would be a gender neutral school

Original poster
SwearyKnickers · 21/04/2016 00:40

Correct me if I am wrong but intersex individuals (hermaphrodite) generally still identify as one sex or another. There is no reason why the school would need to know that Janie has a set of undecended testicles is there?

OP posts:
Original poster
SwearyKnickers · 21/04/2016 00:41

Gender neutral school would be great. Funny, "right on" old Brighton haven't thought about that. Gender neutral doesn't validate anyone though.

OP posts:
BombadierFritz · 21/04/2016 00:43

Sometimes you might wait til the child is older, but its another example of using 'intersex' to advance the trans cause. Did intersex people request this? I doubt it v v v v much

StepAwayFromTheThesaurus · 21/04/2016 00:44

Yes Bombasier. But a gender neutral school would be unthinkable in the contemporary context. And, increasingly so.

Primaryteach87 · 21/04/2016 00:45

I don't really understand why the tiny number of children experiencing gender disphoria (who may need additional support/sensitivity from school) can't be identified through other means.

I'm in favour of being inclusive but not sure this is the best way of practically achieving that.

Primaryteach87 · 21/04/2016 00:48

Would love a gender neutral school. Fed up of girls in pink princess and boys in bob the builder. It's so much worse than when I was growing up.

ReallyTired · 21/04/2016 00:50

Sometimes parents wait until a child is older before carrying out surgery. In the past many mistakes were made. If janie's parents have decided to wait to see which sex janie identifies with then maybe the school needs to know so Janie can be supported and protected from potential bullying. Children (and parents!) can be really cruel when they don't understand. Maybe the school needs a meeting with Janie's parents on the best way of looking after her. Ie. Janie is allowed to use the girl's toilets as she has XX chromosomes inspite of having a willy and a fango.

"It is currently estimated that about one in every 2,000 babies born have “confusing” or ambiguous genitalia. In cases like this, the parents might make the decision to put their child through surgery to determine a physical gender, or they might opt to wait until the child is older and can decide for themselves which gender is dominant in their body and mind."

BombadierFritz · 21/04/2016 00:51

It would be far far healthier. I look at photos of my childhood and we were much less sex stereotypical. I would really welcome a gender neutral primary school. Equally, no need til puberty (which i guess would mean about yr4) for separate bathroom facilities so pretty much everything could be unisex

BombadierFritz · 21/04/2016 00:52

A lot of intersex people get quite upset at being used as an excuse by the protrans lobby

BombadierFritz · 21/04/2016 00:57

Protrans is probably not the best word. Maybe 'transactivist'

Original poster
SwearyKnickers · 21/04/2016 00:57

I think a lot of intersex people on the whole don't go around telling people they are intersex.

Janie is allowed to use the girl's toilets as she has XX chromosomes inspite of having a willy and a fango.

I doubt the school will know or care about Janie's chromosomes and I doubt Janie will really want to discuss it all with the school and if she did she probably wouldn't just be waiting for an 'other' option on her welcome paper.

Presumably one of her parents would go and discuss it with the school. This isn't about intersex this is about trans activism and it's just a great big hairy sweaty pair of bollocks.

OP posts:
Itinerary · 21/04/2016 01:49

Wouldn't it be simpler for the form to just have a blank space after "Gender" ?

Most people would put male or female but if necessary people could put something else.

Italiangreyhound · 21/04/2016 02:00

Itinerary Wouldn't it be simpler for the form to just have a blank space after "Gender" ?

Most people would put male or female but if necessary people could put something else."

How about if the form said "Sex" Female or Male. That would be easier.

SaucyJack Maybe provision should be made for them to just live a normal life and not be expected to deal with all this shit at such an early age. They are biologically male or female (unless they are the exceptionally rare intersex condition, which is totally different) and they don't need to worry about all this at this age.

MrsKCastle and stepaway and AskBasil that is so true. And RiverTam totally agree with you.

Sootica "...til then I think I'll just keep off the Internet and not move to Brighton" Wise move. My dd doesn't like dresses or skirts. That's fine. I wore a dress today for the first time in ages. Who cares.

SwearyKnickers Re "Once they're on that path and being seen as "trans" how do they suddenly say, ah no sorry I'm really a girl?" This is the really scary thing, it is potentially a self-fulfilling prophecy.

bakeoffcake, yes've read the Op's link. Re "It is allowing the parent to leave the male/female box blank if they wish and to "discuss with the teacher"." Why would anyone not want the school to know there child is male or female? It's crazy. It also uses the word 'assigned at birth' which is used for intersex conditions, it is not appropriate to use this for 99.99 percent of the population who are not assigned a sex at birth, their biology in their DNA makes their genitals develop and look a certain way and that is the biological sex that is observed at birth.

I really hope some parents will complain about this form, this is so, so unhelpful.

BackInTheRealWorld I am very sorry if your child, or the child of a loved one, is suffering with this, and I really hope they will have the very best of help. But promoting these ideas wider and wider will not help children in general.

BombadierFritz Re "My daughter, aspie, came home recently all confused as shed learnt that girls who like boy stuff are boys. She likes boy stuff therefore is she a boy
I cant tell you how depressed this reinforcement of sex stereotypes is" I am so sorry about this, I wonder if Austism and Aspergers (if one exists) charities are tackling this issue? Is there help out there?

StKildasNun · 21/04/2016 04:33

Brave comments from Stephanie D A on the link there. Thank God there is some sanity out there.

listsandbudgets · 21/04/2016 06:41

Ds starts school in September. He's 4 in July so will be among the youngest.

I asked him last night if he was a girl.or a boy and he said he was a Thomas Train. To be honest if we were faced with that form I may well have given his chosen answer.
YANBU op

cleaty · 21/04/2016 06:44

The confusing genitalia is a red herring. The most common intersex condition by a long way is a micro penis, or having the urethra on the penis in the wrong place. A boy may have a very small penis, and yes this may create issues, but he is still clearly a boy. The amount of kids with genitalia where it is unclear where they are a boy or a girl, is absolutely tiny. It is incredibly rare. Yes such kids need support, but they are not Trans.

Pseudo341 · 21/04/2016 06:58

I really don't see the fuss. It's perfectly normal to state whether your child is male or female on a form. All this form does is openly acknowledge that that might not be such a simple thing for some people to do.

WellErrr · 21/04/2016 06:59

I thought this needed repeating -

harm 'cis' kids when they hear 'I knew I was a girl because I always liked pink/princesses/shoes/glitter.' Or 'I'm a boy because I like football and not dolls.' Or 'Girls can have penises and boys can have vulvas.' Or 'the gender that you feel is more important than your biology.' Or 'Your feelings as a 'cis' person are less important than trans people's wish to belong.'

All of these messages are harmful.

The message that we should be sending is:
'We can't change your biology. If you were born a boy, you can't ever be pregnant. If you were born a girl, you can't ever become biologically male. But no matter what biological sex you are, you can choose what to wear, what to play with, what job to do and no one should EVER discriminate against you, bully you or prevent you from making your own choices. And if this ever happens, others will stand up with you and fight for your rights.'

I'm sorry that your DC is having a difficult time Backintherealworld.
However, I think they'll have a much easier time when this is recognised as gender dysphoria, a mental health problem which should be treated as such, rather than by lying about biology ('it's ok, you can just change sex' 'you were just born in the wrong body, we can change it') and mutilating healthy bodies.

cleaty · 21/04/2016 07:09

And if a 3 or 4 year old child is mutilating their genitalia, I would strongly suspect sexual abuse. Such a child of course needs professional help and support.