to think how your armpits smell isn't as important as whether your children will survive operations in the future?

[IceBeing]

Just seen a sidebar advert for antibacterial deodorant. Seriously, is antibiotic resistance happening in a parallel universe to the cosmetics industry?

I am sure it will all be wonderful fun to use their new product instead of just washing etc. but killing 90% of the bacteria is just focussing the minds of the 10% on how to evade destruction. When our children and grandchildren are in fear of their lives from superbugs every time they require routine surgery, we are not going to look back kindly on this kind of 'innovation'.

It turns out my DH also believed there was some magical delineation between antibiotic and antibacterial...and that it was impossible for bugs to develop resistance to antibacterial agents.

He is a scientist too...so a quick look at the links posted by whyis and tara was enough to persuade him he was incorrect in his assertions.

Some people still care about evidence in our increasingly post rational society....

I was really astonished by the alcohol resistance data - genuinely surprised at that. I am also still mystified as to why it is thought that an evolution of colony forming behaviour wouldn't be passed on genetically. Can you shed any light on that whyis?

I really can't believe some of the smug, nasty and completely uninformed comments on this thread

OP complained about an ad for deodorant specifically advertised as antibacterial. I think the viewers seeing an ad for any "antibacterial" product, up to and including deodorant, would think it was like the old product with added antibacterials. That is, indeed, what we are supposed to think, and not that it is the same recipe as usual, just described in a new way.

Therefore one can infer that anyone complaining about these ads is complaining about the concept of added antibacterial agents. Even if there has been a case of clever wording in this case, there is still a social issue here to be discussed. Said problem being that the British public thinking 'antibacterial' is a selling point and will buy anything labelled antibacterial, regardless of the long-term consequences for public health.

Some of the antibac cleaner people are the same people who don't use the hand-cleaning fluid in hospital corridors...

For most of my adult life, I have believed that exposure to a certain level of bacteria and viruses, particularly in childhood, helps strengthen the immune system, and develops our ability to fight off infections.

My worry is that using these antibacterial products may kill off bacteria, many of which wouldn't have been a threat to most healthy individuals, but that would have helped strengthen the immune system - leading to weaker immune systems.

But maybe this belief is very out of date - I don't know.

There is a good chance 'Relatively resistant' could lead to completely resistant eventually and then these bacteria could share their new found resistance with other more deadly bacteria

Yes, but bacteria also need prolonged exposure to become totally resistant which won't happen with alcohol because it evaporates.

I feel like your body needs to balance all the competing bacteria and other microorganisms. IF you wipe some out more than others by using a chemical agent (including silver or alcohol) that some are more susceptible to than others you are increasing your chance of an infection (an out of control proliferation of one specific species).

I also wonder if at some point we will have to resort to infecting a wound deliberately with a crippled killable bacterial strain to stop anything untreatable from proliferating in its place.

I really can't believe some of the smug, nasty and completely uninformed comments on this thread

Whereas pseudo scientific psycobabble is ok, yes? Just because someone can throw about a few big words, doesn't mean they're right, and trying to whip up an hysterical frenzy over bloody deodorant is ridiculous.

As I said earlier, a good contender for Scaremongering Thread Of The Year.

mary I am not sure that is true when you look at whole biofilm resistance.

If a single dose of alcohol wipes out all the colonies except the one that formed a slightly different biofilm...then guess which type will be covering the surface next time you look?

Not all people using scientific language are automatically correct no...but the ones citing peer reviewed literature to back up their case probably are.

What can you cite stratter5 to back up your assertion that bacteria can't build a resistance to silver? because there have been several articles cited on here that demonstrate they can?

Can you do anything but repeatedly state you think its nonsense on the basis of no evidence?

Honestly a simple google search will show you the facts - you don't even need academic access to journals.

Whereas pseudo scientific psycobabble is ok, yes?

Such as?

I use Dettol anti-bac soap on my body. I'm perimenopausal and very sweaty and smelly. It helps a lot. I'll continue to use it. I find my personal scent very important.

It reminds me of the paternity question thread....where someone claimed they knew they weren't their DC's father because of a blood type test result. Everyone on that thread was completely convinced it was possible to prove paternity from a blood type test because according to GCSE biology a) the result of a blood type test is infallible b) there aren't any more complex options than A B AB and O. Both of these assertion are bullshit but did that make any difference? No it did not...anyone contradicting on the basis of actual biological/scientific fact was told they were stupid because a GCSE student could tell you they were wrong.

I guess people don't realise just how much of what they learnt at school isn't the whole truth or occasionally isn't even adjacent to the truth.

What can you cite stratter5 to back up your assertion that bacteria can't build a resistance to silver? because there have been several articles cited on here that demonstrate they can?
There already is some silver resistance.

Silver suggested that it is possible that the widespread and uncontrolled use of Ag+ may result in more bacteria developing resistance. However, the probability of transfer of silver resistance genes is considered to be low, unstable and difficult to maintain, and transfer. The frequency of occurrence of Ag+ resistance has been shown to be variable, with the conditions for distinguishing between Ag+ resistance and Ag+ sensitivity being poorly understood. Examples of silver-resistant bacterial strains that have been isolated include E. coli, Enterobacter cloacae, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Acinetobacter baumannii, Salmonella typhimurium and Pseudomonas stutzeri.

Although resistance to heavy metals, such as Ag+, has been studied and reported, exact mechanisms are not known and there is little current evidence of emerging microbial resistance to silver. Increased use of Ag+ in wound care has created some concern regarding the development of bacterial resistance but, unlike antibiotics, resistance to antiseptics such as Ag+ is rare and sporadic. Certainly, with widespread use of Ag+ in wound care, more potential pathogens are going to be exposed to this agent. However, it remains to be seen whether resistance will increase. With the knowledge that silver-resistance genes exist sporadically in certain types of bacteria, it would be appropriate for future studies to determine the actual prevalence of these genes within clinical and environmental settings. However, it is important to note that bacteria have been exposed to sub-inhibitory levels of Ag+ for over four billion years and no widespread resistance has been evident to date, whereas widespread antibiotic resistance has developed within the last 60 years. A recent paper by Gilbert and McBain suggested that in wound care, hygiene should be emphasized and targeted towards those applications which have demonstrable benefits

www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(04)00520-1/fulltext?refuid=S1876-4983(11)00066-X&refissn=1876-4983

There is simply not enough study yet to get cocky about being right about this argument, or wrong for that matter.

Not cocky in favour of the argument - just trying to point out that 'ha ha this is all nonsense' isn't the best repost to a peer reviewed paper.

When it comes to anti-bac deodorant the case in favour of its existence is so sketchy that you don't need much counter balancing argument about detrimental effects to think it shouldn't exist.

Second only to scented tampons in this respect.....

There is simply not enough study yet to get cocky about being right about this argument, or wrong for that matter.**
**
^^ This

Your posts to Stratter where quite cocky and rude, you posed your whole premise on few citations and then tried to belittle people by comparing to the blood type thread

I would expect better from someone who says they work in the field. Especially when it took me 5 minutes to find a counter to your 'evidence'.

were*

I think something to consider here too is that some things are just antibacterial and that this is then used as a marketing ploy.

A bit like saying oh look at this here antibacterial necklace. Things don't have to be added to make them antibacterial, they just are and then something we've used for ages suddenly becomes this antibacterial wonder thing because some clever marketing person has decided to advertise the fact.

That article was published in 2004 Grays

Here is one from 2015

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4505248/

'Here, we identified the first strains of clinical bacteria expressing silver resistance at a level that could significantly impact wound care and the use of silver-based dressings.'

Thankyou whyis I'll read that now!

My point was and is that there isn't enough study yet to be so damning in responses and act like everyone else is such silly little fools to not be able to find a peer reviewed article to prove a point.

I'm also now off googling honey resistance as it's something I've thought off after finding a packet of MediHoney in my drawer..

Just read that, thankyou. I'm trying to understand the clinical significance, and from what I can ascertain the clinical environments are not best suited to the spread of a silver resistant IncH1 plasmids. But SRKP and SREC have potential. This is something I'll be keeping my eye on.

I isn't my intention to be rude to anyone. I certainly didn't call anyone 'a silly little fool' and I'm sorry if it's come across that way.

It concerns me that people are using antibiotic agents when there is no clinical need to do so and this has the potential to further cause problems with antibiotic resistance which, without being a drama llama, would genuinely be catastrophic to many areas of medicine