to think how your armpits smell isn't as important as whether your children will survive operations in the future?

[IceBeing]

Just seen a sidebar advert for antibacterial deodorant. Seriously, is antibiotic resistance happening in a parallel universe to the cosmetics industry?

I am sure it will all be wonderful fun to use their new product instead of just washing etc. but killing 90% of the bacteria is just focussing the minds of the 10% on how to evade destruction. When our children and grandchildren are in fear of their lives from superbugs every time they require routine surgery, we are not going to look back kindly on this kind of 'innovation'.

Antibiotics are used to kill microbes (literally ‘life’)
Antimicrobials are used to kill or prevent further growth of microbes,
antibacterials are used to kill or prevent further growth bacteria,
antivirals are used to treat viral infections,
antifungal are used to kill or prevent further growth of fungi
and antiparasitic act against parasites

So all antibacterials are antibiotics but not all antibiotics are antibacterial

OP are you about to use the words big pharma or big agro shortly in this thread?

Admittedly pharmaceutical companies are not keen on antibiotic development because it probably won't be that effective for very long. However, organisations like IDSA are trying to counter that with their '10 by 20' initiative (10 new antibiotics by 2020).

www.idsociety.org/10x20/

Honestly I think op has a point but it has not been conveyed in the most effective crowd-pleasing manner.

lacontessa yes I 100 agree with you....I let my cosmetics industry rage get the better of me...

stratters I taught a course at postgraduate level this year involving the mode of action of various antibiotics, including things like silver. Sometimes the things written in A-level textbooks aren't factually accurate. Check out how an aeroplane wing actually works versus the A-level physics version if you don't believe me....

whyis antibiotic does refer to bacteria and not yeast etc. so antibiotic=antibacterial but antimicrobial =/= antibacterial....

We actually work on anti-microbials...but are supposedly also looking into the antibac properties of cosmetics...or what damage cosmetics do to cell membranes, human and otherwise. It boils my piss that industry recognise this is a problem with one hand while exploiting it for cash with the other.

I think OP has a point, but then I would. Every time I see "anti-bacterial" on socks or soap, I pick another product.

Yeah, sure you did.

tara indeed - silver nano-particles was the worst one for that. It's widely acknowledged that we don't know the biological effects of nanoparticles at all...yet for a few months it was almost impossible to buy socks that didn't claim to have them in. Its like people have forgotten what a bad idea it was to put asbestos in everything...

I can sort of see what the OP is getting at. We do seem to live in an increasingly germ phobic environment which is not good for the immune system.

I wouldn't buy it. I am a firm believer that we are doing ourselves no favours by nuking every bacteria in sight. We do not need anti bac hand wash, washing powders, or deodorants!! I don't even buy anti bac surface cleaner - hot water and bog standard washing up liquid does the job.

Superbugs are a real and growing problem and this obsession with antibacterial is part of it. Yes we should be cutting down on our use of antibiotics, but we should be cutting down on our use of these silly products too.

stratters feel free to point out the factual mistake I have made regarding silver then... I think you will struggle given I didn't make any statements about this at all.

All I have said is that some methods of killing bugs are susceptible to resistance and others aren't. That the ones you use on people are susceptible to resistance because human cells can resist....and bacteria (given enough time) can begin to mimic the human cells method of resistance.

We work with a microbe that spends some of its time mimicking bacterial behaviour and some mimicking human cell behaviour. This makes it a git to kill....as you might imagine.

They use nanoparticles in sunscreens, too. We are all a massive scientific/commercial experiment.

Where did I say I was referring to silver? You're jumping to conclusions. No, do carry on, this is v interesting :)

Yep, silver-impregnated socks were everywhere. I struggled one Christmas to find socks good enough for gifts that were free from it. Besides, what a waste of silver.

So stratters you said "And yet you are still wrong, you might work in the field of drug development, but you're not grasping that there are antibacterial substances, such as silver, which inhibit the growth of bacteria - they're not going to promote drug resistance in bacteria because it's a different form of 'attack', to use your wording."

While the nursing times has the following to say "While there is a common belief that 'bacteria are unable to develop resistance to silver ions', clinical microbiologists are aware that silver-resistant bacteria can occur in a variety of circumstances and environments (Gupta et al, 1999; Gupta and Silver, 1998; Lowbury, 1975)."

With references and everything...

So do remind me on what basis it is that you are asserting that I don't know what I am talking about and should defer to your expert opinion?

Technically antibiotic is used to mean anything 'alive' however I guess colloquially people mean antibacterial when they say antibiotic. Plenty of anti parasitic medication is refered to as 'antibiotic'

I'm not sure why you are splitting hairs when I agree with you though.

Plus bacteria can become resistant to pretty much anything in the right circumstances (including silver ions, chlorine etc)

I'm always amazing the way an AIBU can turn around...the first 20-30 odd replies massively biased towards U and now there is only Stratters hanging on gamely to the idea that antibacterial is different to antibiotic and can't therefore contribute to resistance...

I am astonished how many people don't know that resistance is a major issue for the future. I am amazed how many people buy into the cosmetics industries weasel wording....

whyis yes - actually it looks like whether you think antibiotic means bacteria depends on your research field. We work with medics who use it exclusively for bacteria, but it looks like in other areas it is still used to mean anything.

I apologise for the lack of interdisciplinary transparency!

It depends doesn't it? Antibac soap is a must for me so it's not a silly product, although I generally use Hibiscrub
Dettol washing liquid I use for smelly tops that would otherwise have to be binned

I think your on about 2 different things there.

I'm not sure what is in the deodorant but bacteria can't develop resistance to everything that kills it so it is possible for topical preparations to be "antibacterial" without increasing the chances of antibiotic resistance. For example, bacteria are never going to be resistant to alcohol based hand gel.

For someone who works in drug development, you're making some whopping fundamental mistakes than an A level Biology student could ride a yak through This.

It's ok, I'm a biochemist so coming it from that angle I guess!

I agree it's shocking how little people seem to either be aware of the issue of 'antibiotic' resistance. Very scary

hollin well if it is a 'must' for you then it is even more important all the people is isn't a must for DONT use it!

It is sort of like the vaccinations argument. You should vax if you can because some people can't. In the antibac world, some people have to use it so the rest of us have a moral duty NOT to use it unnecessarily.