'What British Muslims Really Think'.

[ThirtyNineWeeks]

This Ch4 documentary can't possibly be representative of all British Muslims when only 1081 were polled......can it?

AIBU to think that, for some, this kind of documentary will only ever be seen as evidence of 'Islamophobia'?
And the fact that it is made by Channel 4 will immediately turn lots of folks off..

Don't tell people it's 'OK' to believe this stuff. Actively work toward eradicating harmful beliefs and social practices

YY 100 per cent. Its NOT OK.

Around here many of the converts are female and it was a condition of their marriage when they decided to marry a Muslim man. I don't know if it's obligatory to convert but many do.

It's not obligatory or a condition of marriage. The Quran permits a Muslim man to marry Muslim, Christian or Jewish women.

And Fuzzy - yes I agree about the Beth Din and orthodox Jews.
There is a principle in Jewish law - 'dina d'malchuta dina' - the law of the land is the law. In other words, the law of the country where you are living overrides Jewish law.

Why wasn't Kosher meat introduced in the same way?
There is more to kosher catering than the way in which the meat is slaughtered and bled - the separation of meat and milk etc. Jews who are orthodox enough to worry about the status of the meat will also worry about the other rules as well.

Many do insist on it though. A Muslim friend said if her daughter wanted to marry a non Muslim she would insist on the man to convert. It may not be obligatory but it is seen as desirable and I imagine if you want to marry someone badly enough it doesn't seem like too much of a step if you don't particularly practice any other belief. Not sure what would happen if the bloke insisted it happen the other way though!

Many do insist on it though. A Muslim friend said if her daughter wanted to marry a non Muslim she would insist on the man to convert

How do you know many insist on it just because of the comments of one Muslim friend?

That's the ho[pe that bit by bit like with many of the jews people marry outside the religion and same with muslims as they integrate so more and more we can get people who are more likely to be atheist or at least watered down a bit and Western culture and mores prevail.

Christians have the same principle as above too - you obey the law of the land so eg the Code of Canon law allows girls to marry at 14 but if the law of your country is an older age then the older age prevails (16 in the UK with parents' consent). "Render to Ceasar that whichi s Caesar's and to God that whichi s God's." I would expect most moderate UK muslims to think it's a pretty good idea to comply with English law too even if the religion differs on a particular point.

that doesn't explain why 100,000 Brits have converted to it
again I imagine a multi tude of reasons but very different to chose to do something rather than being brought up expected to do it, and of course if its choice and come from non muslim family then that chooser is also free of those familial constraints and community.

Some of the contributions on this thread are really worrying. Scholars in the Islamic tradition and world were light years ahead of those in the Western world when it comes to things like Mathematics and Astronomy, so please don't tar them with this brush of Islam being an uncivil, brutish religion. It simply isn't true and is mostly down to how it is interpreted by fundamentalist whack jobs which there are plenty of in ANY religion.

The thing about Islam really is (I think) is that it needs its own Enlightenment or Reformation. It needs to adapt and evolve. And that isn't happening with enough liberal voices speaking.

As far as the polygamy comment goes, in this country it isn't legal so nobody is getting benefits for their four wives or anything.

Greeb - don't be naive- each of those "four wives" makes independent claims as "single mothers".

Oh and Muslim men are allowed to marry Christian and Jewish women but Muslim women aren't, IIRC. Their prospective spouses are supposed to convert.

But everyone practises their faith slightly differently

I'm not being naive. Who marries them?! It's not legal in this country.

But the polygamy should be stamped on. It's not legal and if he wants four wives then the husband should house and pay for them not the state. We have enough of this in our own culture. The marriages probably aren't legal.

I don't but it is what seems to commonly happen. If there were no pressure I imagine that you'd see many more mixed marriages where the partner who was non Muslim didn't convert. Perhaps there are some cases. It just seems to be mainly the case around here. I'm not sure how much like in my friends case whether family feelings would be part of why someone may like their partner to convert.

Scholars in the Islamic tradition and world were light years ahead of those in the Western world when it comes to things like Mathematics and Astronomy Even if this were true, and there's a lot of debate as to whether knowledge was more simply catalogued rather than discovered, there's simply no point suggesting that a golden age of yesteryear somehow absolves a system of crappiness today. Both things can be true simultaneously.

The thing about Islam really is (I think) is that it needs its own Enlightenment or Reformation Yes, that's true, as long as that Enlightenment or Reformation does not involve more unproven, whimsical beliefs (religion through the back door).

It absolutely doesn't dissolve any of the crap today but calling it an ignorant brutish religion (as some do), also isn't totally the case either.

As far as the polygamy comment goes, in this country it isn't legal so nobody is getting benefits for their four wives or anything

Not so, it seems - and although someone can't marry multiple wives in this country, it appears that marriages entered into elsewhere are recognised in the UK

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/637436/Migrants-more-one-wife-extra-benefits-reforms

Well, I have no idea how that will work as you can't bring multiple wives over on a spousal visa because you can only have one wife in this country plus you need to be earning at least £30,000+ now to do that anyway, don't you? And if you did earn that much, you would qualify for many benefits, I would imagine.

"they integrate so more and more we can get people who are more likely to be atheist or at least watered down a bit and Western culture and mores prevail"

So, in fact, Western culture is atheism and the problem with Muslims is that they believe in God. That puts me on the outside of Western culture for a start.

It absolutely doesn't dissolve any of the crap today but calling it an ignorant brutish religion (as some do), also isn't totally the case either. I agere that this can all be done without, shall we say, strong language.

So, in fact, Western culture is atheism and the problem with Muslims is that they believe in God. That puts me on the outside of Western culture for a start. That's incorrect. Someone upthread mentioned a multitude of identities and how we can accommodate them all. We often forget that we are all something. We all hold beliefs and act in certain ways. No-one is without belief. Atheism is not an absence of belief. Neither is spiritualism, neither is secularism. We can't accommodate everybody; otherwise, it becomes like trying to run around after a toddler. Whenever somebody stamps their foot and demands something, we accommodate it. Madness. There is absolutely NO reason why religious Enlightenment or reformation cannot involve splitting up of religious identities and playing around with these concepts. In fact, as a society, we must demand it. Believe whatever you like privately, at home, but these believe MUST NOT influence people's lives outside of the home/private sphere. A new generation of Muslims, or whoever, can push for a fragmentation of their identity - personal beliefs at home; evidence-based beliefs in public. It's what everyone does anyway (hence why the trend toward accommodating non-evidence based practices is so worrying), but even the most devout young Muslim must surely feel alarmed at things like being forced into a marriage when, if that identity were split, they wouldn't have to be or they are carted off to have some spirit or other beaten out of them when they know that there is absolutely no evidence that they are possessed (that's not a question - I know that this is the case) . I also know that once we introduce people to these concepts, they run with them, so...who is resisting, and why?

but even the most devout young Muslim must surely feel alarmed at things like being forced into a marriage when, if that identity were split, they wouldn't have to be

Fourmummy, your ignorance is painful.

Forced marriage is as forbidden in Islam as eating pork.

It is documented that a woman approached the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) to complain her parents married her off without her permission and he told her she could get divorced instantly.

You didn't know that, did you?

Forced marriage is a cultural issue and culture is not the same as religion.

SamG upthread quite rightly pointed out that your planned "no religion outside of the home" would not be tenable for most faiths.

You declare that a Sikh man can only wear a turban at home, do you know why Sikhs wear turbans and why it might be extremely impractical for them not to wear a turban?

What about Rastafarians and their dreadlocks? Would someone have to hide them, or would it be that they could only be worn for "secular" reasons?

Then there are beards. Would Muslims, Sikhs and Jews be forbidden from growing beards and forcibly clean shaven?

If I choose a vegetarian meal in a restaurant, because halal meat is not available, is that mot allowed either, because I'm practicing my religion outside of my home?

Btw, the even quite recent history of many religions shows there was a time when they had to practice in secret and yet they are all still with us.

"they integrate so more and more we can get people who are more likely to be atheist or at least watered down a bit and Western culture and mores prevail"

Yeah, let's eradicate religion full stop. Atheists rock!

Why the he'll should religions be 'played about with'? Tell you what, let's just get rid of those that preach hate and intolerance and murder of infidels and leave the sane others alone.

I'm leaving this thread as my OP was supposed to encourage debate about What British Muslims Really Think and the documentary showed unequivocally that there is a worrying number of unenlightened nutters practising Islam. I'm not sticking around to read yet more leftie drivel claiming we are not still considered a Christian country, and that God is invented. Some of you really do need to get to grips with the notion that You Dont In Fact Know Everything.

Pontypine, I feel pity when I read your posts attempting to espouse Islam as something we all know it isn't. Arranged marriages are often forced - we know it, you know it.

It is documented that a woman approached the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) to complain her parents married her off without her permission and he told her she could get divorced instantly. Where is this documented? Link, please. If it's the Hadith then please be warned I shall return with my own documented 'truths' from there.

You talk about culture being separate from Islam. Again: laughably disingenuous.

UmmBum

Ask us, we'll tell you why.

Why do you wear a headscarf? And why are you telling your daughter that when she's older, she must also wear one?

What scares me is that non of the indigenous population seems to get priority over social housing and having dc is expensive especially if you have to buy a property.

I believe that a lot of the newcomers do get social housing and have dc and particularly in the more than 1 wife scenario.

I know our government pretends they don't.

Therefore larger families and possibly Islam becoming dominant. Possibly a Balkans situation without the borders.

I think we need to preserve the distinction between arranged marriages and forced marriages - they are separate things entirely and I don't think you need to qualify a forced marriage as also being an arranged one. The issue isn't that it's arranged, it's that it's a forced one.