'What British Muslims Really Think'.

[ThirtyNineWeeks]

This Ch4 documentary can't possibly be representative of all British Muslims when only 1081 were polled......can it?

AIBU to think that, for some, this kind of documentary will only ever be seen as evidence of 'Islamophobia'?
And the fact that it is made by Channel 4 will immediately turn lots of folks off..

That may be so, sam - I'm no legal expert so wouldn't know - but again it's the message implicit in allowing parallels I have problems with. In principle we're either all one under the law or we're not, and this seems a dangerous time to encourage separatism

I also take your point about judgments already made, but let's not forget that, if alternative courts no longer existed, there'd no longer be anything to set aside

I am very right wing, libertarian (and pro immigration) and I would ilke religion removed from all state funded schools. However that is not going to happen any time soon as huge numbers of voters segregate themselves by religion within the state school system by going to C of E or Catholic schools and get the better education that way as does Cameron and as did Blair. It's such a vote killer it won't happen until we atheists up our birth rate and also convince the just under half in the UK who believe in an invented God that they are wrong.

I would not prohibit people from going to anyone to settle their disputes if they want to but we must give women who are controlled by men and religions safe houses, comfort they will not be friendless if they break a reilgious or cultural rule and means to communicate with people who are not in their group. The itnernet obviously is a hugely useful tool in this respect both to promote ISIS but also atheism and liberal and feminist values.

I would not ban burkas or head covering in public but I would like state schools to ban girls covering their heads. That was never done in the Europe or in much of the middle east when girls were below puberty and it's an awful trend that those little girls are restricte and curbed. If parents want children who are 5 - 10 in schools with heads covered they can pay for the schools themselves or do home education.

that Islam really is a load of medieval and unenlightened

Not a scholar of history are you OP? Or if you are it's the sort where brown people ran around in mud huts, happy to be colonised by the all achieving white folk.

Are you suggesting a Sikh shouldn't be allowed to wear a turban, or Jews shouldn't be allowed to leave work early on Friday afternoons. These would be hugely controversial and have failed miserably in France. Would these have failed if there had been united, singular political, social and economic will to pursue this? Wear the turban at home but not in public. Leave work at the same time as everyone else, or after you've worked your 37 hours, or whatever. What's wrong with that?

To extend that reasoning further, on a personal level, no-one has any idea what my beliefs are or what I get up to at home. But, I do have beliefs and I do practice certain behaviours at home. I'm not devoid of these things. I'm not 'faithless', 'belifless' or 'actionless'. I don't just sit in a chair and do nothing. But, I dress similar to my colleagues at work, I work similar hours, I do similar duties and I pitch in with similar tasks. Millions of people do this. Why should this be a problem for anybody?

In my DS school on the days when the Halal option is served the vegetarian option seems to be really poor. The DCs getting Halal get a lovely curry with chicken and rice and nan. What is the alternative? A small jacket potato with cheese. DS always comes home starving on these days. I did have a word and ask if a vegetarian curry could not be provided but it was apparently out of budget. There unfortunately is halal 2-3 times per week as most of the school is Muslim.

We are only veggie but it shouldn't impact that my son gets a very poor meal whilst others have plenty. Also there is no alternative if you like meat but refuse Halal for the reasons above. And don't say move schools because we had no choice in the matter!

I really think religion should not be part of public sphere. I do think religion can be practised without being as visible. Sikh women for example wear western clothes and apart from the turban Sikh men do not wear anything different apart from some jewellry.

IPity strangely enough you can be opposed to something without being a colonialist and quite honestly what others do across the world in different countries is not really something I have any interest in changing, it's up to them. It's when I am expected to change to accomodate something they would like in the country I come from that goes against what I believe and my fundamental values and actually impacts me in my daily life. I know enough about world history to know that a very small fraction of people ran around in mud huts - if you go back far enough we were all in mud huts and animal skins anyway!

Obviously people didn't actually run around IN the mud huts, they lived in them - realised that sounded a bit bizarre!

Well said IPityThePontipines

"Bluerocks - saying "these can be had at home" makes no sense in the context of a religious requirement. At my school we used to have fish on Friday. No one said "Ah, you can have that at home" - it was a courtesy to take account of religious preferences. I don't see that halal meat is any different"

Fish'n chips on Friday to accommodate Christians religious tastes is just as irrelevant and outdated. Children don't need to eat meat at school if they are not happy with the type of meat on offer. Practicing Christians who don't want their dc to eat meat on fridays can send a packed lunch or eat the veg option. We send packed lunched on days the DC don't like the food and are unlikely to eat it to prevent them from going hungry.

The UK is not a religious country, not Christian or otherwise, why should state school provide meals tailored to religious preferences?

My argument is, if schools cater for Halal and kosher food they should also cater for other special diets, for example vegan meals or meals where all ingredients are organic, meals free of sugar, or organically reared meat etc.

"I want Britain to remain a Christian country."
But we are not a Christian country, we are a diverse nation with people engaging in a wide range of cultural and religious practices today. We will remain culturally Christian because that is our history and heritage but in reality Christianity has very little to do with day to day life in the UK.

I find current times very interesting as well as disconcerting. Many, many Muslim families are, of course, citizens who contribute, in their way, to our society, they live here, are British and get on with raising their children, earning money etc, and that's it and good. The question is where we will go from here, how can we all live together in a way that works most of the for most of the people, no matter their cultural practices? There has to be some cohesion in society otherwise there will be unrest. The secular model should be promoted imo.

I watched this.

Why do we tolerate polygamy though. It is not on. If men want more than one wife then it should be funded by them not the state and discouraged.

The young man who wanted a caliphate was worrying.

Small clarification, sam: I realize of course that some UK legal judgments would continue to be set aside just as before, as in appeals, retrials and so on. My point was that they'd come about as a result of a unified, secular framework

Apologies if I wasn't clear ...

So it is ok to have dietary requirements for any reason under the sun as long as it is not for religious purposes, sportinguista?

Obviously your school are not doing the catering properly because vegetarian would also be halal, but it is not the fault of the Muslim students.

And how many generations have to pass before you are prepared to share YOUR country with other people? Most of the Muslims I know are fourth or fifth generation British and a lot of them are natives, inasmuch as one can be a native.

And what exactly are you referring to by religion being part of the public sphere?

Dd's school is very, very mixed but has a sizeable Muslim population. They offer Halal meat twice a week as an opt in. Children cannot have halal meat without their parents permission and there are other options for those who choose to have them. I don't see what the problem with this is.

Also, my area has a very large Sikh population, plenty of the ladies of all ages wear shalwar khameez. I don't see an issue with this either, but then I'm not the sort who thinks women need saving from non-Western clothing.

But fish Friday came from our Christian traditions of hundreds of years but somehow we are meant to bend over backwards for people who have at most been here since the 50s and have halal.

Why wasn't Kosher meat introduced in the same way?

I am happy to have Halal or any other requirement as long as it doesn't mean provision of it comes at the price of other students meals. I personally do not agree with Halal on animal welfare grounds. I'm not saying it is the fault of the Muslim students themselves but because they are the majority the rest tends to fall a bit by the wayside. As I said, I did address it with the school and was told there was no budget for it. I will not be paying for school meals when he hits year 3 as I don't feel it's worth it to have him come home hungry.

It's not about sharing the country, I am well aware many of the muslim families are well into 5/6 gen for some. I am also aware that if I for example moved to Pakistan I would be expected to follow many of the customs/social norms and fit in there. Quite right too. I wouldn't expect to introduce the British legal system there or wear bikini tops in the street there, no matter how strongly I felt. If I wanted to stay in that country I would need to try and belong.

Religion as part of the public sphere? Having a bearing on political decisions, in schools, in hospitals etc. As I said I'm pagan, but apart from a necklace I wear, no one would know.

Interested, to the Muslim ladies, some of my Muslim friends and colleagues don't wear veils, what is the level of choosing to veil or not, is a matter of family background, personal choice or a mix. Also dress seems to vary from skinny jeans and long tops to full Burkha, it seems to be so varied, although a couple of friends have told me they have had a bit of flack for dressing 'too western'. Is there an unwritten code?

So, how many 'I wants' and 'I needs' do we accommodate, then? 10, 20, 100, 200? We can all see the problems with this, but we have an answer. We can confidently say, "I know that you are not going to be struck dead by lightning if you take your turban off for work. Take it off". "I can guarantee with 99.9% confidence that you'll be ok if you don't pray during this operation, yet, I can guarantee with the same level of probability that your patient will die. Don't pray". "Yes, I know that you want this to happen, but it can't, and I have evidence to show you why it can't happen. It can't happen here, at school, in the office, at the hospital, in the library. It can happen at home". ".

And unbum did you see the bit in the program with the teacher saying the boys in their primary used to beat the girls and call them slags (or similar) for not covering their heads?
I find it amazing that you and Ipity can speak for all muslim women - I wonder what the women living under Isis or those who lived under the Taliban feel about you saying covering up is a choice?
I personally feel angry when I see women in the UK apparently choosing to wear the Nicab or burka - it makes me think about the women in the world who have no choice but to wear it - I don't know if I can explain it feels like an insult to those women - and in fact to female equality. Not the hijab so much - although seeing small children wear it makes me feel uncomfortable - as does seeing small girls wearing high heeled shoes, a face full of makeup, lacey crop tops ... also copying their mummy but I don't think it is appropriate.

And Fuzzy - yes I agree about the Beth Din and orthodox Jews. But there are fewer Orthodox Jews in the UK and if anything goes against the laws of the UK - like the London school not allowing mothers to drive their DCs to school - I want it to be over turned - as it was...

Unlucky I'm sure that most Muslim ladies would agree that calling any girl a slag for not veiling, especially if it was not part of her culture is wrong. I don't think that would happen in DS school as most of the parents wouldn't tolerate it and neither would the teachers and anyway the majority of the primary age girls don't wear it. Even some senior school girls don't. It may be different in other parts of the country.

I am with you on the make up and high heels thing but I know I am a bit old fashioned in some ways, my mum was quite strict on that kind of thing so I feel much the same way. I think some of DS friends think I am terribly strict about a lot of things!

Fish Friday isn't too inconvenient to accommodate and everybody eats fish, I don't think that has to be halal, it's always fish or pizza on Friday at DS school, I don't think anyone has complained yet. I think most of the DCs probably go for the pizza they all seem to be fanatical about that!

Somebody mentioned upthread about the UK not being a Christian country any more, and that may well be true from the point of view of who-goes-to-church-now. However whether we like it or not the Church of England, in it's role as established church, is firmly entwined in many things which affect our daily life

Granted it might not be easy to unpick, but some of us wish that wasn't so. It's not just that we don't want "imported religions" as some call them enjoying any kind of civil authority ... we don't want any religion doing so

Let's look at what Christianity was doing in 1437 before we judge

Lets look at society as a whole, in 1437, not a great place with civil rights was it, not enlightened. Everything was evolving so where could others look to?

Society has moved on we do have examples to look too so whilst I agree Islam has not gone through separation from church and state et al, there is no excuse for the more barbaric and unequal parts to it. For instance womens rights, were non existant in 1437, but we know now, women are equal and should be treated in every single way as such.

Great post Fourmummy on the asking WHY.

Why aren't Islamic (but this equally applies to other nonsense ideas) superstitious beliefs dying out, reducing or being curbed?

I can think of many reasons it carries on, but compared to other religions, it has a strangle hold on its followers, you cannot critise the faith, without insulting the prophet and we all knows what happens when the prophet is insulted. Its violent and it rules through fear. Leaving the faith can lead to a death sentence. Critising it can lead to a death sentence. etc etc etc

Yes, like it or not the CofE is very much part of our heritage and it is part of what has shaped this country. But I don't feel it should be part of the civil authority as such. It is however mostly fairly unobtrusive in daily life.

"Leaving the faith can lead to a death sentence. Critising it can lead to a death sentence. etc etc etc"

Whilst that's undeniably true in some places, that doesn't explain why 100,000 Brits have converted to it.

Quite a few Muslims have left their faith too, some of them may even have converted to Christianity, it may just mean more difficulties for them than going the other way. Apostasy may not mean death but it may mean the loss of family, friends and community which can be equally traumatic for the individual. I don't think it's a step anyone would take lightly.

Around here many of the converts are female and it was a condition of their marriage when they decided to marry a Muslim man. I don't know if it's obligatory to convert but many do.

fourmummy Fri 15-Apr-16 10:30:04

ANOTHER brilliant post thank you Fourmummy.