'What British Muslims Really Think'.

[ThirtyNineWeeks]

This Ch4 documentary can't possibly be representative of all British Muslims when only 1081 were polled......can it?

AIBU to think that, for some, this kind of documentary will only ever be seen as evidence of 'Islamophobia'?
And the fact that it is made by Channel 4 will immediately turn lots of folks off..

Well FGM has negative consequences, going on Jihad may have the negative consequence of death, wearing a burkha can have a negative consequence of vitamin D deficiency, sand up your foof is plainly not going to end well...

fourmummy is right.

By the way even newspaper critics of the CH4 documentary have not faulted its very careful measured choice of muslims. They didn't pick only radical ones. The methodology is sound. We just need to persuade them all to abandon sexism , homophobia etc. They will come round I am sure.

I have nothing against religious or other irrational beliefs as long as practiced at home or at a designated prayer facility.

Islam doesn't bother me. Christianity or Judaism don't bother me am partial to the occasional service and evensong as well as a bit of Buddhist meditation.

What I object to, on a fundamental level, is mixing any religious practice with public life and politics. Doing this contradicts and undermines diversity in favour of the most ostentatious and aggressive interest group. Europe and the UK have become incredibly diverse in terms of cultural practices over the last 20 or so years. This is a fact. In a lawful and hopefully peaceful diverse society, people need to agree on basic attitudes and conduct. Schools, colleges, workplaces, should be free from religious symbols and clothing. Schools ought to provide healthy meals but not pander to religious preferences, those can be had at home. Why should Muslim families get halal meat whilst a vegan family may not get a balanced vegan school meal in line with their preference? Because it is impractical and the school system is not able to cater for all the diverse food preferences all families may have. Catering for one (dominant) particular set of superstitious food preferences is discriminatory and unreasonable.

Getting back to the issue of irrational beliefs. Religious beliefs are superstitious and irrational. It could be argued, however, that designer clothing and capitalism including body modification such as surgery to improve physical looks are part of an irrational belief system as well…
Western liberal values are increasingly tied with neo-liberal values where the freedom and identity of the individual is expressed in what they consume. Everything is a commodity and our lives are steered by global marketing we have, in many ways, become a highly decadent and addicted society (addicted to many different things). Where do we go from here?

Bluerocks - as I understand it, you're saying that state schools shouldn't produce suitable meals for children. I can think of few things likely to provide a better recruiting tool for radical private Muslim (and Jewish) schools than the idea that their kids will be forced to eat non halal/kosher food at school. That's what's happening in France.

Perhaps we need to stop the influence of Saudi/Wahhabi Islam and the Deobandi predominance of mosques in the UK. How about taking more notice of the more peaceful interpretations of Islam such as Sufis and Ahmadis? Why do we allow the more puritanical form of Islam to dominate in this country? Why do the Saudis have so much influence in the world? Why are European and UK politicians allow the spread of this dangerous form of Islam?

I didnt watch it because who cares....

Sam Don't twist my words.

"as I understand it, you're saying that state schools shouldn't produce suitable meals for children"

in response to "Schools ought to provide healthy meals", evidently you do not understand what I am saying.

Halal meat is hardly a requirement for balanced diet. In fact meat is not necessarily a requirement for a healthy balanced diet.

Everything is a commodity and our lives are steered by global marketing we have, in many ways, become a highly decadent and addicted society (addicted to many different things). Where do we go from here? Well, we do what we've always done. If we find evidence that playing violent video games leads to violent behaviours, then we mitigate against it. If we find that learning several languages is good for the brain, then we put that into practice. If we find that gambling or alcohol intake lead to addiction, then we deal with it. Ditto for everything else. But we don't guess. We know, supported by observable evidence. Why should religious practices be exempt from evidence-based knowledge?

How about taking more notice of the more peaceful interpretations of Islam such as Sufis and Ahmadis Why? Isn't it enough to know that these people are doing whatever it is that they do or thinking whatever it is they are thinking at home, away from public spaces? Why should what they believe influence health, medicine, law, education, finance, politics?

A side note for those who wonder about young girls wearing hijab at pre-school type ages, they will often want to wear it just to emulate their Mothers. Not because it is forced upon them or even encouraged at that age. My DD (2) will carry my scarves round and try and put them on, to be like me. Hijab is worn largely out of choice, across the Muslim population. There is a proportion that wear it out of expectation or pressure, but in the UK most women you see covering will be doing it out of free will. Ask us, we'll tell you why. Muslim women are not voiceless, contrary to the incorrect but widely held view that we are.

" I can think of few things likely to provide a better recruiting tool for radical private Muslim (and Jewish) schools than the idea that their kids will be forced to eat non halal/kosher food at school. "

And I can think of few more unreasonable things than forcing your child to go without their school lunch halal because of something someone said hundreds of years ago.

Let's face it, if someone rolled up to AIBU asking "AIBU to force my Christian beliefs on my child?" or "AIBU to tell my DD that her rolled up skirt will attract the sexual interest of men" or "AIBU to bring my child up according to my own dietary restrictions?" the answer would be a resounding YABU.

I honestly don't believe that any reasonable Muslim parent would let their kid go hungry.

Bluerocks - saying "these can be had at home" makes no sense in the context of a religious requirement. At my school we used to have fish on Friday. No one said "Ah, you can have that at home" - it was a courtesy to take account of religious preferences. I don't see that halal meat is any different.

I am very concerned, as are others, at the 85+ Sharia courts operating alongside our own legal system in this country

This is something I've been saying for years. Nor is it about the morality of decisions reached or other issues such as the bits they apply (since we're always told courts wouldn't really condone stoning, etc, no honest they wouldn't ...) Rather for me it's about the message accepting sharia law sends

In all honesty, how can we advocate unity and integration while these courts are allowed to exist? How can we insist people abide by our laws when we demonstrate that it's okay to opt out on self-selected issues? Our laws may not be perfect, but the answer there is to work democratically towards reforming them where necessary, not to encourage a parallel system based in a bygone age

Perhaps we need to stop the influence of Saudi/Wahhabi Islam and the Deobandi predominance of mosques in the UK

Oh, and good luck with that

We used to take packed lunch to school so as not to eat non halal food.

It's cruel forcing someone to eat food they have chosen not to. My DC would not knowingly eat non halal food I wouldn't not as a kid not as an adult.

Would you force a vegetarian child to eat meat at school?

I've grown up going for veg options if eating out, I'm glad there are now halal options so I can enjoy the choice.

Why would anyone think forcing their choices on someone else/someone else's child is a good thing?

Theydon'tknow - is this a wind-up? I'm not sure if you are right as to what AIBU would say, but that is a completely skewed demographic. I think if you polled Jews and Muslims, the overwhelming view would be that it's perfectly reasonable to impose these views on your children, at least until they leave home.

There are Jewish courts also the Beth Din, are you concerned about those?

fuzzy spin that about - I think Halal is cruel - it is not the most humane way to slaughter an animal. I don't want to eat Halal. The same way as I try and avoid eating factory farmed meat, battery eggs and refuse to eat white veal and foie gras etc because it has to be cruel. I don't want my child to eat Halal (the thought actually honestly makes me feel sick.)
So my child is forced to eat meat that comes from a tortured animal because of your beliefs...is that fair?

fuzzywuzzy if your question was for me, yes I'm opposed to those too

I support state secularism in all things; private belief and practice is no problem at all, but for me religion (any religion) should have no place in things such as the law, schooling and so on

Fuzzywuzzy - There are Jewish courts also the Beth Din, are you concerned about those? Yes, of course. Any publicly expressed belief system that is not based on observable evidence is problematical and unacceptable in a secular, evidence-based society. Believe what you want to believe - just dont bring it into law, education, food, politics, social policy, etc.. Zero tolerance to all of that. It's the only way we can move forward (of course, this process keeps on being subverted by various factions, and that is an issue).

As I understand it, the Beth Din is part of the court system, and covered by the Arbitration Acts. they are quite open, and their verdicts can be appealed. Good luck with setting aside a sharia judgment made by some secret "court" in Manningham!

fourmummy - you're making a common MN mistake, which is assuming that all religions are similar to the C of E. Many other religions are expressed in public. Are you suggesting a Sikh shouldn't be allowed to wear a turban, or Jews shouldn't be allowed to leave work early on Friday afternoons. These would be hugely controversial and have failed miserably in France.

Ask us, we'll tell you why. Muslim women are not voiceless, contrary to the incorrect but widely held view that we are.

Ha ha! As if an actual Muslim woman knows more about Islam and the lives of Muslim woman then someone who's watched the odd documentary.

"Theydon'tknow - is this a wind-up?"

Not at all Sam! I guess I'm biased as I grew up in a Christian environment and sometimes I still get angry at the lies told to me by religious elders. When you're a child you don't have the skills or the confidence to challenge what adults tell you and I firmly believe it's morally wrong to force religion on children when there's no evidence for it.

Bluerocks, I want Britain to remain a Christian country. The Left like to call it superstition, I call it faith. I'm a bit bored of lefties complaining about school assemblies and Christian privilege.

Can we stick to Islam, please, as that's what the OP is ostensibly concerning.

Theydontknow- so you're suggesting that Jews and Muslims should be forced to feed their children ham sandwiches in order to demonstrate that they are not being indoctrinated. Good luck with that!

Fourmummy, thanks for answering. I think it's time we started saying, as a nation, that Islam really is a load of medieval and unenlightened bollocks. In fact, that's the perfect title of the next documentary, methinks.