'What British Muslims Really Think'.

[ThirtyNineWeeks]

This Ch4 documentary can't possibly be representative of all British Muslims when only 1081 were polled......can it?

AIBU to think that, for some, this kind of documentary will only ever be seen as evidence of 'Islamophobia'?
And the fact that it is made by Channel 4 will immediately turn lots of folks off..

Agree with the last few posts. Happy to keep it to Islam. My point is that who is telling people that it's ok to believe rubbish and nonsense (I don't mean just the imams, who have an obvious vested interests and thus can be removed from the argument)? There have been many rubbish ideas and beliefs spouted throughout human history. A lot have died out. Why hasn't this one? There are some obvious and not so obvious reasons, but all of these will lead to political, economic and other. I'm not interested in what people believe - anyone can believe what they like (as that belief doesn't leave their head unless it's based on two criteria of evidence and outcome. In other words, as a society, we should not be interested in anything unless it's replicable and rigorous, and has a proven measurably better outcome). The more urgent point than finding out what individuals think is to scrutinise why stuff and nonsense is either perpetuated or enjoying a resurgence in Islam. Why aren't Islamic (but this equally applies to other nonsense ideas) superstitious beliefs dying out, reducing or being curbed? It's about time - so who or what is supporting this? We've seen it happen with others, so why not this? It can be argued that our curbing of religion and thus expanding our ability to live one's life as you want is our greatest achievement.

I believe the general British public is too afraid to have those difficult conversations because years of brainwashing has taught them it's a thought crime to criticise an ideology.

Yes, I believe this to be a worrying issue too., particularly amongst the younger generation. And then of course there is the actual real threats to those who do question this ideology, most recently the murder of Asad Shah.
I think the only solution is to start talking about it, although that is easier said than done. Censorship is rife, even here on MN, you only have to look at the number of deleted posts on the Cologne threads, for example, to see that.

I think the real question is, who benefits from putting out these types of programmes? Divide and conquer

Yes, we do absolutely need to keep on talking, and our voices need to be louder than anyone else's, but we need the talk to be focused on the structures that are supporting and perpetuating these problematical beliefs (because talking about religion itself is minimally interesting - you kinda know the answers before you've even had the discussion...).

Interesting latest post on the current Cologne thread fourmummy by LongWayRound talking about how in certain Muslim countries the government set the topics of agenda at Friday prayers and oversee which Mosques their citizens attend abroad. The UK otoh certainly seems to be a bit of a free for all with very little regulation.

Not seen it yet as too late last night and it's now first time I've sat down all day. Some interesting points raised especially on the maturity (date) of the religion. Will report back once I've sat down and watched.

Itsjust Thanks. Will check the post out. Cuautepec - if the programme raises points for discussion, then it's done its job. It really is time that we stop giving credence to irrational beliefs, so the fact that we do (in our society) suggests that someone or something has a vested interested in keeping the whole thing going. It's not the belief as such (plenty of rubbish beliefs out there. Too, too many) that I am interested in, but the support for it. Where does that come from and whose interests are served by allowing it? Once we know, we can begin to fight back.

lumpy they had a control group - which would include 'white blokes who belong to golf clubs' ....
I've watched it now - found it pretty interesting. I understand the reasoning but I can't see how having schools with less than 50% of any one background is going to work in practice.
I currently live in a semi -rural white MC area - there are maybe 5/200 non-white children in the primary - a true reflection of the ethnic mix in the area. (And my DC are mixed race ones in that mix). For that to be any different you would have to transport children from at least 6 miles away (nearest bigger place).
Where I used to live you would have the opposite problem - transporting non-white children miles to the school...
So schools are easily going to be able to tick the box that says they have a good reason for having a larger % of certain groups ...
Actually it might back fire and encourage people to integrate less - stay in/move to areas if they want their DCs definitely to be educated with 'like-minded' DCs

Itsjust I've read LongWayRound's post on theCologne* thread. Interesting. To widen that particular argument, whose interests are being served here, in Europe, when people are allowed to continue practicing superstitions when everyone knows that they are nonsense? What do Europe's politicians get out of allowing this to continue? I still haven't worked this out because you have to be a particularly bad kind of person to turn away from people's suffering in the interests of... what.. ? Do we even know?

I think the real question is, who benefits from putting out these types of programmes? Divide and conquer

I think the real question is, who benefits from closing down, belittling, minimising, labelling or mocking this type of conversation?

Interesting stuff. The significant minority of British Muslims who adhere to the "No to democracy, Yes to Islam" mindset are never going to change their minds.

I just wish that the women in these communities had more power. Throughout history, it's been the example and attitudes of women that have increased tolerance and led to more equality and liberalism. What chance do these women have, inferior and obedient to men, silent and veiled?

"What British people with six toes on each foot really think..."
That would be Norfolk then

Fourmummy, I think one of the reasons that parts of the muslim ideology (which are actually in opposition to the laws of our country) are protected and even provided with conditions where they can flourish ie by being handed down to the next generation in faith schools, is because another religion which has been in this country longer also perpetuates those beliefs. We can now have female anglican bishops but there is little prospect of the catholic church moving into the 21st century

Ah, so the thought police are out! People should not be allowed to have irrational beliefs?

Just give, are you seriously comparing Islam to Catholicism?

Fourmummy, I agree with your posts and am equally baffled regarding the staying power of this unenlightened and medieval religion called Islam.

I would like to know what certain posters believe to be a 'Christian fundamentalist'. Clue: it is merely a Christian who believes in the fundamental truths of the bible. I would strongly argue against the Crusaders or those involved in the Inquisition being Christians; they most certainly did not love Christ or his teachings.

People should not be allowed to have irrational beliefs You can have irrational beliefs - as long as they remain in your head. They're no good elsewhere.

PMSL at owl YY Norfolk people the mutants of the country! I come from there and am now counting my toes, just in case!

Unlucky, regarding the schools, my DS goes to a school which is around 90% Muslim of Pakistani origin, in my DS class it is around 80% of the children are of that background. There is only 1 child of white British origin (DS is white part European so not totally of British parentage). It is mostly good in terms of schooling etc, but socially very difficult. We have had to adjust to the fact that he is only invited to 1 maybe 2 birthday parties per year and play dates are not encouraged. Invites have gone out but many of the parents do not even rsvp and none turn up. You get used to working round this. It also was difficult at both Eids when there were only 20 children in school in the entire year group (90+) as they then did a day of DVDs etc as with most of the children missing they couldn't focus on any crucial coursework. We are going to move out of the area soon, mainly for more space in house (DS room is tiny) but a more diverse school environment is one of the factors too. I'm afraid the area is now becoming monocultural, but this is through people making active choices, and as you said how could we manage this without actually bussing children across cities as parents will still choose to live where they do for other reasons.

I too believe that you can believe what you like however ridiculous as long as it doesn't impact on others or your ability to function within the parameters of the laws/social norms of the environment you are in. Some of the beliefs of some Muslim people however are coming into conflict with that in a number of ways it appears though.

Ah, so the thought police are out! People should not be allowed to have irrational beliefs?

The Orwellian thought police that I meant didn't object to irrational beliefs.

It was other thinking altogether that they suppressed and eliminated.

Apologies for the misunderstanding

I think British society has been very naive about what Islam really means. We thought we understood religions - some strange rituals, but basically everyone following decent moral codes and being nice to each other. Fundamentalist Islam's not like that, it commands followers to be separate, kill the infidel and wage jihad. Those fundamentalists are obeying their religion's teachings. If a fundamentalist Christian behaved like that, they'd be 100% wrong because Jesus taught loving thy neighbour, being a good Samaritan and turning the other cheek.

Recently I've been wondering why so many more Muslim women and girls are wearing headscarves these days. When I was young (in the 80s) hardly anyone did. But after hearing the head teacher on the programme explaining how nine-year-old boys in her school were hitting girls' uncovered heads and calling them slags, I know why. Horrific.

I missed it - what do British Muslims really think? ( if someone could kindly put it in a nutshell for me )

Bloody hell, the Katie Hopkins article about this is really inciting religious hatred. I know, I know don't give her any attention.

People can be allowed to believe what they like, for example some list their religions as being Jedi or Wiccan. However I have rarely heard of either of those groups personal decisions or beliefs affecting the lives of others or falling foul of national laws or social norms. Many people would say these are somewhat irrational beliefs.

Nobody is saying thought police, but when your decisions and possibly your actions as a result of these cross the line into the public domain, then we have an issue. This can happen with fundamentalist Christian beliefs too as in America where they demonstrate/threaten abortion clinics or places where gay people go. This means others feel or are threatened by the beliefs held because they are then actively carried into the public domain, this is the same for those campaigning for areas to be Sharia compliant. They would then be effectively imposing this on any non Muslim residents of the area who would not be able/wish to comply and be forced into moving out. Ergo belief affecting the lives of others.

IT was an interesting programme, it seemed quite representative, whilst most Brirish Muslims support British values and way of life, and believe in Gay relationships and marriage, there are those who do not and will be extreme, which is what we do have to worry about. These are the people who tend to go towards groups like ISIS and terrorism. We should not be afraid to talk and discuss it, in the open and not keep it hidden and take action towards those who are putting our Country in danger and threatening British values and way of life.

Whilst protesting outside an abortion clinic is wrong and they should be dealt with, is totally different to blowing up and killing hundreds of people.

Limer, I went round B&M the other day and I counted between 10 and 15 girls from the age of around 5 - 9 wearing headscarves. If it as explained a modesty thing and to stop unwanted sexual attention from males it's a bit shocking, because any man looking at a girl of that age needs to take a long hard look at himself and maybe take a trip down to the police station.

Nowadays it is rare to find a Muslim woman who does not wear the veil round here, I know only 2. It varies in degrees and I would say the face veil is definitely far more common than it was 10 years ago and certainly 20 years ago I can never remember seeing it unless it was on TV in a documentary.