AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

[SpringingIntoAction]

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

HelpfulChap

Please...if you're so helpful, help us to understand where you are coming from.

If we vote for Brexit, do you think we should negotiate a deal to remain in the single market, like Norway, or leave the single market completely?

I think you are way to confident about winning this. I have a feeling come polling day the In crowd will win out.

Like I said, a lot of the Brexit media is very reactionary, it will turn many middle voters off.

Oh and PS its not a revolution so whatever happens I'll still be able to look down my nose at people if I so wish, I'm not going to be dragged to the tower. I haven't looked down my nose ANYWAY.

I think if their is an exit vote I will have the last laugh anyway, Boris won't get the leadership and all those who thought the EU was meddling will realise how much it benefited them.

Genuinely, I am staggered at the lack of proper economic analysis from the Brexit crowd, in terms of impact and future trade deals, it beggars belief.

Butterred.

Your're asking me? How would I know. I can't even spell eye queue let alone have one.

Swing is clearly out of her depth.

Evidently.

I know I am over the target by the amount of flak I am taking.

Keep voting for Cameron - you know it makes sense.

We are screwed in TTIP for sure if we stay in the EU but out of it we at least can pressure our own government for explanation on terms and use political opposition and the House of Lords to place direct pressure on the government concerning such a deal

Rainbunny

I'm glad you too can see the sense in Leaving to avoid TTIP, as David Owen is recommendng

When I read this thread earlier, as an "outsider", I did read Spring's posts with a feeling that very little was actually being said or discussed. It's soundbites and pub debate, not really adding to the analysis.

Spring, do you feel you've argued effectively here against some very formidable opposition? I'm keen to hear the economic argument for Brexit (indeed, I recently started a thread to identify industry-specific positions on Brexit). I'm baffled by people who hold their hands out and say "How should I know whether we should stay in a single market?" after wading in on an economic discussion. If you have ideological opposition to the EU, fine. But that's not going to cut it on global trade analysis thread - it's just looks petty and snipey.

I need to know I'm planning on voting in the way I feel is right. But I have ONLY seen reasoned economic arguments from the Remain crowd. That can't be right?

#teamlurked

This explains a lot

The trouble is, if we do end up with Brexit, nobody is going to be laughing.

WRONG!

AGAIN!

Laughing? I shall be dancing in the streets while you are sobbing into your Prosecco

MaidofStars

I need to know I'm planning on voting in the way I feel is right.

Good luck.

I am sure your mates in 'Teamlurked' will butter up your decision.

Avoid TTIP through Brexit?! Are you insane? I'm not entirely sure how you think that will happen. Avoiding TTIP is one thing that may have me voting to remain tbh.

The majority of the Brexit campaign is just soundbites, especially on this thread. Bring me some stats, some peer reviewed research, something tangible other than just emotion.

HelpfulChap

"Butterred.

Your're asking me? How would I know. I can't even spell eye queue let alone have one."

Yes I'm asking you. Clearly you are attempting to make a joke, but it's a serious question. You cannot seriously claim to have informed yourself of all the relevant issues if you do not have an opinion on this.

Witsender

Avoid TTIP through Brexit?! Are you insane? I'm not entirely sure how you think that will happen.

I explained in detail downthread how we could avoid TTIP.

Avoiding TTIP is one thing that may have me voting to remain tbh

That's illogical

Please educate me about the whole TTIP thing?

Unless we don't want to trade with the US surely it has to be signed? I don't see how leaving the EU would change this? Surely better to negotiate from within the EU which has a massive market, than from the UK alone which has a far smaller market?

Or is the idea that we leave the EU and have no trade deal with the US?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Yes, that's broadly correct.

One minor point in all of this is that the US has already categorically stated that it has no interest in negotiating a separate free trade agreement with the UK outside the EU. In reality, however, there is no reason why they would not want to trade with us and I'm sure they would be quite happy to "fax us their terms and conditions and tell us to sign", which is (by their own admission) the way they usually deal with smaller, weaker countries.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine
One minor point in all of this is that the US has already categorically stated that it has no interest in negotiating a separate free trade agreement with the UK outside the EU.

The US under the Obama Presidency that ends in Jan 2017 has stated this. The new US President may have a different view.

In reality, however, there is no reason why they would not want to trade with us and I'm sure they would be quite happy to "fax us their terms and conditions and tell us to sign", which is (by their own admission) the way they usually deal with smaller, weaker countries

This is inconsistent with the view that is also expressed by the Remain voters that the EU is the largest global trading bloc.

The 'largest global trading bloc' should not be permitting itself to be dictated to by the US.

Preserving the NHS is of no interest to the EU. They are quite happy to see it killed by TTIP. If we really were 'safer and stronger and better' in the EU, the EU would be protecting the interests of the British who use the NHS. It isn't.

So you have the formerly very pro-EU Lord Owen recommending we vote Leave to save the NHS and his view is shared by many others.

Meanwhile Labour is content to watch the NHS be killed off by TTIP because they can then blame it on Cameron and his recommendation to stay in the EU. They, like the Tories who are recommending Remain are doing nothing to save the NHS from TTIP.

www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/22/ttip-deal-real-serious-risk-nhs-leading-qc

Extremely dishonest behaviour.

"The 'largest global trading bloc' should not be permitting itself to be dictated to by the US."

It isn't. That's why this is taking so long. How many times do we have to spell this out to you, Spring?

"Preserving the NHS is of no interest to the EU. They are quite happy to see it killed by TTIP. If we really were 'safer and stronger and better' in the EU, the EU would be protecting the interests of the British who use the NHS. It isn't."

The parts of TTIP which could threaten the NHS are of equal concern to other member states who want to protect their public services. People from all over the EU are challenging TTIP and trying to make sure that the deal which is eventually agreed is mutually beneficial. Some of our own MEPs - notably the Greens - are working very hard on this, in cooperation with like-minded people from other member states.

I'm having trouble making sense of your thought process, Spring.

If you are so worried about the possibility of us being dictated to by the US, surely you can see that we are far more likely to be dictated to by the US if we leave the EU and go it alone than if we remain in and stand shoulder to shoulder with 27 other countries?

Your arguments have no logic

To you.

Cameron wants TTIP.

Cameron wants you to vote for his recommendation to Remain in the EU.

I don't want TTIP therefore I shall vote to leave the EU and play my part in bringing about the fall of Cameron.

Junckers Little Helpers can continue to cling to his skirts for fear of something worse.

But they should stop kidding themselves that TTIP is inevitable. It just suits their desire to stay in the EU to pretend that it's inevitable, so they might as well vote for the EU.

They know the NHS is unsustainable as it is stretched beyond its resources and opened to private companies - they even did their share of that under Bodybags Burnham.

Best to stay in the EU, kill the NHS and pretend it wasn't their fault - it was all Dave's. They didn't even TRY to stop him.

A very dishonest and very disingenuous stance to try to maintain.

I give up. I'm all out of crayons.

Springing, that's not fair. The #teamlurked thing was a reference to a question upthread where s/he asked if s/he was making sense. For me, yes. But I admit that I haven't seen the appropriate opposition argument, just petty and swivel-eyed insults. I'd like to hear the opposition argument, preferably backed up with some solid reasoning and research. Are you able to provide this?

If you are representative of Brexit (and I hope you aren't because, as other posters have said, I cannot believe that anyone thinks this is a fucking laugh to be bantered around with immature student insults), you are not going to win any votes here.

As far as I can tell, your argument is:
We leave the EU.
We refuse to sign TTIP (How will we continue to trade with the US?)
We therefore save the NHS.

I am most interested in how you think the second proposition will play out. I've heard the well-structured and well-argued POVs of the Remain. Do you have any response?

Buttered

Seriously? I could come up with a million reasons for Brexit and it would not alter your position one iota. The same way as yours and #teamlurked don't alter mine.

It is the undecided that need convincing and there are very few if any on here.

Personally I think Springing is holding her end up very well considering how out numbered she is. I admire her tenacity.

Would I be laughing? Not sure. I might be a little smug though, be nice to have something in common with the remain voters.

I'm having trouble making sense of your thought process, Spring.

That's your fault for trying to maintain an illogical position Buttered. I cannot be held responsible for a person's lack of intellect.

If you are so worried about the possibility of us being dictated to by the US, surely you can see that we are far more likely to be dictated to by the US if we leave the EU and go it alone than if we remain in and stand shoulder to shoulder with 27 other countries?

The US is your big bogey man - not mine.

I don't buy into your clinging to Junckers skirts.

There are plenty more countries in the world that are not under the cosh of the US. I am sure that as the world's 5th largest economy the UK can make a deal with the US that is mutually acceptable to both sides instead of delegating the responsibility to negotiate our trade deals to another body that not not have our national interests at heart.

So I reject your scare stories about the US utterly.

Here is Stilgitz, a Nobel prize winning economist also advising that the UK leaves the EU, to avoid TTIP.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eu-referendum-joseph-stiglitz-ttip-labour-transatlantic-trade-investment-partnership-a6907806.html