AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

[SpringingIntoAction]

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

HelpfulChap

So, I take it you are not going to answer the question?

I've forgotten what it is.

If we leave the EU, do you think we should negotiate a deal to remain in the single market, like Norway, or leave the single market completely?

It's not a debate buttered, it's an ideological stream of consciousness from a contrarian poster who offers critique but no solutions which stand up to scrutinyou. Who yet also has the teremitary to scorn others who use data and precedent backed arguments.

Who claims to be taking flak but whom is deliberately condescending and insulting. Springs arguments do not stand up to scrutiny, same with most of brexit it's hopeful punt to play on people's fear and prejudices (in the sense of beliefs already held) that makes good use of sound bites but offers no serious economic solutions nor strategy.

So I'm off to the pub to drink with my fellow North London Guardian reading liberals, I'll be sure that we laugh into our prosecco at home superior we are to you spring
Xxx

MaidOfStars
. I'd like to hear the opposition argument, preferably backed up with some solid reasoning and research. *

I think you're lying because other things you have posted make me believe you are firmly within the REMAIN camp (or TeamLurked as you cal them).

If you are representative of Brexit (and I hope you aren't because, as other posters have said, I cannot believe that anyone thinks this is a fucking laugh to be bantered around with immature student insults), you are not going to win any votes here.

And there's another reason why I feel justified in thinking you are lying when you say you are open for discussion.

As far as I can tell, your argument is:
We leave the EU.
We refuse to sign TTIP (How will we continue to trade with the US?)
We therefore save the NHS.

Yes

I am most interested in how you think the second proposition will play out. I've heard the well-structured and well-argued POVs of the Remain. Do you have any response?

Lol @ 'the well structured and well-argued POVs' of TeamLurked.

And you expect me to think you retain an open mind. I hate it when posters lie. It just males them seem very dirty to me.

I refer you to the link in my previous post where the Nobel prize winning economist advised that the UK leave the EU to avoid TTIP.

I am sure that as the world's 5th largest economy the UK can make a deal with the US
Would we remain the world's 5th largest economy after Brexit?

So I'm off to the pub to drink with my fellow North London Guardian reading liberals, I'll be sure that we laugh into our prosecco at home superior we are to you spring
Xxx

Yeah, I would Lurked. After all you wouldn't want to stick around now that I've pointed out that a Nobel prize-winning economist says we should leave the EU if TTIP is still in force. Oh no. That would not fit in with your assertions at all.

It's a one way street with some posters. They can click, cut and paste as much as they want - as long as others don't do the same.

People like that will fit in well in the EU totalitarian state where preambles to Treaties are just 'sound bites' and 'ever closer union' was just an idea that they floated and they 've gone off now.

Lying lies to get you to vote to give up your freedoms.

P S Don't forget to take the rest of your team with you Lurked.

Get a Mochachocochino for me Lurked. Decaf. Cheers.

My interest in debate evaporated once the sneering about Brexit voters being uneducated and ignorant started.

HelpfulChap are you going to answer the question or not?

My interest in debate evaporated once the sneering about Brexit voters being uneducated and ignorant started.

It's what they do to make up for the absence of a coherent reason for staying in and submitting to TTIP and the loss of the NHS.

HelpfulChap are you going to answer the question or not?

Don't tell him , Pike

I think you're lying because other things you have posted make me believe you are firmly within the REMAIN camp (or TeamLurked as you cal them)
You think I don't want to hear opposition arguments? How insulting.

I know how I currently feel. I know what would be best for my job, I know what my ideology is. But I wouldn't only use those to guide my vote. One thing I am ignorant of, both in this context and generally, is economics. I need to hear both sides.

And there's another reason why I feel justified in thinking you are lying when you say you are open for discussion
I'm imploring you to tone down the crap (because it is crap, nothing to do with what you're saying, more your attitude) and perhaps start arguing coherently? I am not remotely interested in being goaded about agreeing with Cameron (FWIW, I agree with him on a couple of things - didn't and wouldn't vote Tory though) - how can you think this wins hearts and minds?

Lol @ 'the well structured and well-argued POVs' of TeamLurked
Compared with that emanating from you, they are well-structured. If you don't think they are, if you think they have flaws to address, why aren't you countering?

Jesus, how am I supposed to have a nice balanced conversation about leaving the EU if the supporters of that motion think I'm a target for insults?

At the moment, there is no balance. The econiomic arguments for Remain appear to be coherent to me. You are not going to change my mind by calling me "dirty". It just makes you sound like a nasty person.

I genuinely want to understand his point of view. This is THE most important question in the debate, and I honestly don't see how you can claim to be even remotely informed on the subject if you do not have an opinion on whether we should remain in the single market or not.

It's what they do to make up for the absence of a coherent reason for staying in and submitting to TTIP and the loss of the NHS

OK, here's where I've got to with this.

It seems to me that we are going into TTIP, whether we like it or not. The argument for collective bargaining power via the EU, to maximise our outcomes, is reasonable to me. I also believe, having now read around it, that our current government are very pro-TTIP and perhaps only being held in check by the EU? I can't see a way out of it. And I've read your posts, and I'm intelligent, yet you don't seem to have done anything except framed a series of implausible events that stack like a house of cards. I'm afraid to say that I think the NHS is probably unsaveable and that genuinely makes me sad.

I genuinely want to understand his point of view. This is THE most important question in the debate, and I honestly don't see how you can claim to be even remotely informed on the subject if you do not have an opinion on whether we should remain in the single market or not.

I expect Mr Stilgitz has fully through it through in making his recommendation to leave the EU to avoid TTIP. Nobel Prize winners are usually seen as experts in their field.

On the other hand, we could trust self-professed economists on the internet who claim to be EU law but evidently have sufficient time to spend all day on Mumsnet rubbishing and gaslighting other posters.

I think I'll go with Stilgitz.

Don't tell him , Pike
It's just a joke for you. That makes me sad too.

I'm afraid to say that I think the NHS is probably unsaveable and that genuinely makes me sad.

Never mind.

The Remain camp can blame it on Cameron.

Meanwhile I will blame them for giving it up without a fight.

Such craven cowardice.

Do all Nobel economists think the same? I don't know.

Do you read the articles you link, OP?

"He was broadly supportive of the UK’s membership of the EU, highlighting the examples of Sweden and other European nations that are part of the union but have agreed different rules."

Stiglitz is highly critical of TTIP, and said, "I think that the strictures imposed by TTIP would be sufficiently adverse to the functioning of government that it would make me think over again about whether membership of the EU was a good idea."

The article doesn't discuss his views on how the UK would get on negotiating trade with the US after a Brexit.

I'm a fan of Stiglitz's writing and got a lot out of his analysis of free market neoliberalism in Globalization and its Discontents. I'd be very interested in his answer if he WERE asked about the UK's bargaining position after Brexit - but this article doesn't give it.

You're absolutely right, MaidofStars.

And I feel very very strongly that anyone who thinks this is all a big joke or who has not made an effort to properly inform themselves of at least the main issues should not be voting.

This is a one-time decision which will have a monumental impact on the future of our country. Voting is a privilege. It is also a huge responsibility. People who are not willing to inform themselves of all the relevant issues should stay at home on polling day and leave the decision in the hands of the people who have at least tried to understand what is going on.

I expect Mr Stilgitz has fully through it through in making his recommendation to leave the EU to avoid TTIP

Having just read that article, that's not what he said.

And you're going to let an American tell you how to vote? While rallying against the right to self-determination?

Oh dear.

Ah, crossed with Pausing

This is THE most important question in the debate
I agree. The EU, as far as I understand, is primarily a trade association (I know I'm not going to use the right words so forgive my ignorance). The overarching aim to promote wealth, and that is partly achieved by the creation of a single market? So, how anyone cannot be bothered have a think about how the UK will be part of or interact with that market afterwards is beyond me.

Actually, I feel like, if any of the well-informed people here are willing, are they able to outline the possible good economic outcomes of Brexit? Do any of YOU understand what the opposition argument is? I'm not asking you to back those arguments, obviously. But I see lots of stuff about "We have economic power/5th largest economy/etc" and "Everyone wants our stuff" but I have no handle on how true that actually is.