AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

[SpringingIntoAction]

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

[butteredmuffin]

It's quite simple really. I believe in representative democracy, not in allowing the general public to make an extremely important decision with complex economic and political repercussions in a referendum.

[HildurOdegard]

Have you considered a political career in Zimbabwe? I hear they'll be due an election literally any moment now! None of that pesky "wrong voters" nonsense going on there.

[HildurOdegard]

Following the political silencing of those whose views do not align with your own, and then the removal of the vote from those deemed "less intelligent", will you be moving on to removing the vote from those with more than one X-chromosome?

[Itinerary]

But the elected government of our representative democracy has chosen to offer a referendum. Are you saying they shouldn't be able to do that?

[butteredmuffin]

Hildur, have you considered actually engaging with the debate, rather than mudslinging and hyperbole?

Itinerary, of course they can. I just believe it was a mistake, that's all. Labour weren't offering a referendum. Cameron only offered one because he didn't think for one moment that he would actually get a majority. He thought he'd either be sitting safely in opposition saying, "of course, the Conservatives would have a referendum", or in coalition with the Lib Dems and blaming them for not having one.

Now he's absolutely cacking himself that we will actually vote out and he will go down in history as the prime minister who allowed the UK to self-destruct.

[Itinerary]

I don't see the EU as being the "lesser of two evils" at all.

The UK does have a Tory government at the moment, but perhaps that's because they were the only party who offered a referendum on the EU. It doesn't mean the UK is inherently right-wing. A different government may well be elected next time.

IDS/Redwood won't necessarily be the leaders after a Brexit. I think there may be more of a reshuffle and some newer faces. And again, the Tories can be voted out. You can't vote out the unelected EU Commission or any of the MEPs from the 27 other member states.

As for social protections, Britain has an excellent history of human rights dating back hundreds of years, including the Magna Carta of 1215. Britain had already introduced a good deal of helpful legislation long before we joined the EU in 1992, such as the Abortion Act 1967 and the Equal Pay Act 1970. The UK's Equality Act of 2010 would still stand if we leave the EU. The Domestic Violence Act and the Employment Protection Act were passed independently of the EU, and the Divorce Reform Act was passed before we joined the EU. The general public would be very likely to oppose any negative changes to anti-discrimination law, maternity pay and leave etc.

[HildurOdegard]

I'm a grown woman, I can handle a little "abuse". I just find it astounding that in 2016 someone who claims to be intellectually, socially and academically superior to virtually all - in in fact what we like to call intelligentsia -and wishes merely to quash the voice(s) of those who do not align with her politically.

The wiki article is hilarious : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligentsia

buttered I'd love to engage in debate, but alas I'm too thick.

[Itinerary]

There must be arguments against remaining, so why can't you share and explain them?

There's a lot of interesting debate from both sides on the EU Referendum 2016 part of MN, if that would be of interest?

[butteredmuffin]

Last time I poked my nose into that topic it was mostly Daisy posting links to the Daily Express.

[FirstVix]

There's a lot of interesting debate from both sides on the EU Referendum 2016 part of MN

Thanks Itinery - I've seen that referred to but hadn't found it. I am rubbish at navigating this site at times! I'll have a shifty at the weekend when I'll have a bit more time.

And 'Hi' to all. Please don't hurt me!

[Itinerary]

Hope to see you there FirstVix!

[Itinerary]

Newsnight is currently showing on BBC2, with a debate on the EU and the economy.

//www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b078c9g6

[Ruslana]

HelpfulMan's posts are very funny, good humour, but I see MyHovercraft does not like women at all. You come to MN because you think female is stupid and will accept everything you say. The bigger a 'gang' gets the more remote its leadership becomes. Decisions handed down by Eu to its territories without really understanding if decision is good or bad for that particular part of Eu, serves only the decision makers.

Have you asked question why Eu wants to expand and expand and take countries where people are living like early 20th century, who have no MILOST (mercy). Have you actually travelled Mr Hovercraft?

TTIP may be seen as Eu joining forces with USA, not just in business . Eu allows USA to trade and invest in return for warfare protection.

[BreakingDad77]

IDS/Redwood won't necessarily be the leaders after a Brexit. I think there may be more of a reshuffle and some newer faces. And again, the Tories can be voted out. You can't vote out the unelected EU Commission or any of the MEPs from the 27 other member states.

I cant vote out UKIP mps, or the civil service either......

[butteredmuffin]

Wow, there's some quite blatant sexism going on from the Brexit camp here...

[BreakingDad77]

As for social protections, Britain has an excellent history of human rights dating back hundreds of years, including the Magna Carta of 1215

LOL one of my great great relatives was deported (Tolpuddle Martyr)

[Daisyonthegreen]

Ruslana Tues 19April 10:14:33
Well said.

[JassyRadlett]

IDS/Redwood won't necessarily be the leaders after a Brexit. I think there may be more of a reshuffle and some newer faces. And again, the Tories can be voted out. You can't vote out the unelected EU Commission or any of the MEPs from the 27 other member states

When was the last time you voted out a civil servant, or an MP from another constituency (including in another UK country)?

[Daisyonthegreen]

Lots of really good links for reference on the" In out shout it all about ,what to vote in the EU Referendum" Thread now closed.

I have always made it clear our country and families and children would have a much brighter future were we to LEAVE the EU (European Union).

Busy mums can ,time permitting dip into that site: I am a mum so I know! but do have a look.

There you will find links for Business for Britain,Students for Britain,Muslims for Britain ,Women politicians views,Security experts and many many more to make the very good case to Leave.

The EU Referendum is on the 23rd of June this year.

[Daisyonthegreen]

JassyRadlett
That is a desperate argument.We need to exit the undemocratic,bureaucratic,remote faceless EU.We need to return decision making and precious hard won Democracy to these shores.
I shall vote to Leave with utter confidence for the future of my children.

[butteredmuffin]

I had no idea Daisy was a mum...

[Itinerary]

When was the last time you voted out a civil servant, or an MP from another constituency (including in another UK country)?

The people of the UK can jointly cause a change of government in their own country. You may not like your MP, but statistically, most people who took the time to vote will see at Westminster a lot of MPs from a UK party that they support.

Even if 100% of voters in the UK voted for MEPs from the same party, that would still only come to 9.7 per cent of all MEPs. When we joined the EU, we had 17 per cent of the vote on the Council. And as more countries join this percentage will lessen.

We have little influence in the EU, as shown in this article on the LSE website: UK influence in Europe series: British MEPs lose most often in the European ParliamentThe article also notes that "Most British MEPs do not sit in the groups that dominate the European parliament agenda."

Of the 4,318 lobby meetings between December 2014 and June 2015, over 75% were with corporate lobbyists.

In the UK the MPs propose legislation. In the EU, MEPs can't even propose or repeal legislation, that's done by the unelected Commission (so unlike the UK's civil service). Then secret trilogues are often held, before the legislation is rubber-stamped. It's a pseudo-democracy.

In his article EU is democratic abomination and no Labour leader should say otherwise Iain Macwhirter, Political Editor of The Herald says:

"The EU parliament" ... "has failed to exercise restraint on the Commission, still less the inter-governmental Council of Ministers. The EU parliament has no significant powers and only the unelected Commission can promote legislation. In the absence of democratic scrutiny, the Commission has become the plaything of lobbyists and NGOs who infest the structures of the EU. There are almost as many lobbyists working in Brussels as there are bureaucrats."

"Those civil servants in the European Commission live a rarefied life. Their €300,000 salaries are inexplicably taxed at a specially reduced rate and come with a galaxy of benefits and bonuses that would have made the most avaricious Westminster MP green with envy even before the expenses scandal of 2010. There is still endemic corruption in the EU. But the main problem is remoteness from the people it is supposed to serve."