AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

[SpringingIntoAction]

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

[SpringingIntoAction]

Your faith in democracy is touching, but misplaced. The best that can be said for democracy is that it is better than the alternatives

Churchill reached that conclusion decades ago. We have not yet found anything better.

[butteredmuffin]

"I find it more bizarre that people who hate and do not trust Cameron are going to vote for Cameron's recommendation to stay in the EU."

Ok Springing. I don't trust David Cameron or Jeremy Hunt, who are both saying we should stay in the EU. I also don't trust Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson or Rupert Murdoch, who say we should leave.

Should I refrain from voting, on the grounds that I need politicians I can trust to tell me which way to cast my vote? Should I stay at home on 23rd June on the grounds that I can't vote for a particular position, even though I agree with it, because someone I don't like or trust is also supporting that position?

Or should I educate myself and decide for myself?

I do not have to like or trust or support or vote for David Cameron in order to vote the way he is recommending in the referendum.

[SpringingIntoAction]

In our own particular version of democracy, the government is chosen by a relatively small percentage of voters, to represent those particular voters.

One person, one vote is a democratic voting system. Everyone has a right to persuade others to their point of view. If they fail to do so it means that their views have been rejected.

Remember Theresa May's "go home" vans? The government spent a huge amount of money advertising their crackdown on illegal immigrants. Do you also believe, in the interests of fairness and representing the entire electorate, that they should have spent an equal amount of money funding a campaign for all illegal immigrants to be given indefinite leave to remain in the UK?

Why would you want to campaign for illegal immigrants to stay who, are by that very definition, illegal? An illegal immigrant is not part of the electorate - they have no vote. They are part of another country's electorate while they are here illegally in this country.

What about the much-maligned "bedroom tax"? Do you believe the Department for Work and Pensions should have put forwards both in favour of and against their own policy?

The Government does fund NGOs and charities that do present an alternative view.

What about the junior doctor's strike? Do you think Jeremy Hunt should be saying, "on the one hand, junior doctors are lazy little gobshites who don't want to work weekends and don't care if people die as a result, but on the other hand, I am a duplicitous arsehole who has deliberately twisted the facts to mislead the public, oh and by the way, I want to privatise the NHS"?

Don't be absurd

I think you are the one who is being absurd.

I am quite happy for the Govt to post its leaflet.

It will do a lot more harm than benefit to the Remain campaign .

People will tell me how unfair they think it is.

I will not attempt to dissuade them from their views. As you said there is no obligation on one side to present the views of the others.

I will just smile and thank Cameron for assisting the leave campaign

[SpringingIntoAction]

I do not have to like or trust or support or vote for David Cameron in order to vote the way he is recommending in the referendum

It doesn't hurt to remind people who profess to hate Cameron so much, that they will actually be voting FOR his recommendations.

In fact if you hate Cameron as much as people tell me they hate Cameron then the best thing to do is vote out on 23 June and watch the Tory party kick him out on 24 June.

No PM would ever survive having his recommendations rejected by the public.

[butteredmuffin]

I am not voting for David Cameron's recommendations. I am voting to remain in the European Union because I believe it is the only sane choice.

David Cameron could abseil from the top of Big Ben, completely naked, shouting "Vote for Brexit!" and waving a union jack if he wanted to. It wouldn't make any difference to my decision.

David Cameron's position has not made even the smallest amount of influence on my vote, and it shouldn't influence yours either.

[butteredmuffin]

For what it's worth, I would love to see David Cameron suffering a career-ending total public humiliation on 24th June. But I want to remain in the European Union even more.

[SpringingIntoAction]

I am not voting for David Cameron's recommendations.

You are. You know you are.

Cameron is recommending that we stay in the UK. You are voting for Cameron's recommendations.

I am voting against Cameron's recommendations.

[SpringingIntoAction]

For what it's worth, I would love to see David Cameron suffering a career-ending total public humiliation on 24th June. But I want to remain in the European Union even more.

I think you may achieve both

[butteredmuffin]

FFS, Springing. The question on the ballot paper is not "Vote remain if you like David Cameron and leave if you think he's an arsehole."

I am not voting for David Cameron's recommendation. I am voting to remain in the European Union. The fact that that is also what David Cameron happens to be recommending is irrelevant to my decision.

The only reason I care about what David Cameron is recommending is because there are lots of irresponsible people out there who don't take their civic duties seriously and will vote "leave" as a moronic act of defiance against him, which makes the outcome I am hoping for less likely.

You have just demonstrated perfectly why I don't think the electorate are responsible enough to be trusted with a decision of this magnitude.

[lurked101]

Who will replace Cameron though ? He who weilds the dagger never wears the crown. It would very possibly turrn to be a poisoned chalice anyway with the economic downturn that will ensue once a brexit vote is announced.

I think the leaflet issue is being overblown and that because much of the media is pro brexit we are seeing far more of this in the media.

The elected government can spend funds like this as it isn't a general election, there are no "rules" on fairness.

[butteredmuffin]

Agreed. If anyone on this thread objects to their taxes being used to fund a leafleting campaign, feel free to tell me your address and I will personally send you 34p from my own pocket.

I won't sell your details on to any third parties or commit identity fraud. Promise.

[SpringingIntoAction]

I am not voting for David Cameron's recommendation.

You are. You really are.

It's hard to admit, but you are.

You can tell your children and generations to come 'I voted for David Cameron's recommendations'.

You can tell your kids you voted for the EU. They will know then you voted for Cameron's recommendation.

No way round that.

[lurked101]

Which would show that you are above partisan politics and actually interested invoting for the educated correct view.

Or you can say I voted with the swivel eyed loons of UKIP.

Nice choice :)

[SpringingIntoAction]

You have just demonstrated perfectly why I don't think the electorate are responsible enough to be trusted with a decision of this magnitude

On this we do agree. However, I accept that we live in a democracy where everyone's vote counts.

If a person choses to Vote leave because they like the shiny badge Vote Leave or choses to vote Remain because that nice Mr Cameron has sent them a tax-payer funded leaflet to persuade them - that's their choice.

Top tip: Badges tend to get taken more quickly than leaflets

[butteredmuffin]

As I said, Springing, you are making my case for me perfectly and you don't even realise it.

[SpringingIntoAction]

Which would show that you are above partisan politics and actually interested invoting for the educated correct view.

Lol! 'Educated correct view'. The arrogance of thinking that there is 'an educated correct view'.

Ha, Ha. Get thee to a gulag all you who do not hold our 'educated correct view'.

Worrying.

Or you can say I voted with the swivel eyed loons of UKIP.

I don't know Lurked. I'm not UKIP and even if I were your vote is secret.

[SpringingIntoAction]

As I said, Springing, you are making my case for me perfectly and you don't even realise it.

Oh I do realise it. You don't really matter to me at all because you have already made up your mind and are unswayable - just like me.

I'm just amused to think of all those people who detest Cameron going out to actively vote for Cameron's recommendations.

Never mind.

[butteredmuffin]

"I'm just amused to think of all those people who detest Cameron going out to actively vote for Cameron's recommendations."

Why do you find this amusing?

As lurked has correctly pointed out, these are the people who are not letting party politics dictate their decision, but have made an effort to inform themselves and make their own mind up based on the facts available to them.

If you are not mature enough to do the same thing then you don't deserve to vote and you should stay at home on polling day.

[lurked101]

You pretty much embody UKIP views though.

Anti EU, very anti immigration but pays attention to assumptions rather than facts.

Pie in the sky ideas about the UK being able negotiate totally beneficial trade agreements.

Spouting economics on trade like you understand it , but blatantly don't.

Yeah exactly like a UKIP voter.

[HelpfulChap]

I see Lurked has jumped on the 'I know better than the plebeians' platform.

The leave voters are now both ignorant and uneducated!

The Remain camps superiority complex really is something to behold.

As for it is 'only' £9.5mn, the average school costs £14mn. I know where I would rather taxpayers money went.

A new school vs bin-fodder. Decisions decisions.

[SpringingIntoAction]

If you are not mature enough to do the same thing then you don't deserve to vote and you should stay at home on polling day

Dear, dear. ho s going to judge whether someone is sufficiently mature - you?

I'm seeing some rather worrying authoritarian views on here from the REMAIN side. Voters must be 'mature' and hold the 'educated correct view'.

That should make those who belief in democracy run for the hills.

Not so surprising though that people who think democracy should be withheld from others also support the democratically deficient EU.

[butteredmuffin]

HelpfulChap

If we leave the EU, do you think we should negotiate a deal to remain in the single market or leave it completely?

[lurked101]

No I said that if you rose above partisan politics you would be taking a choiuce based on an educated view, which would have been to read all the information and make a decision.

The stuff the Brexit side come out with often seems to be based on assumption rathe than fact, and the information they then quote at you tends to come from sources who are pandering to their readers predjudices.

I think the government is utterly justified in spend the £9m, information provision to allow people to make a balanced decision. Pro- Brexit dominates the main stream media so its good to get more information out there.

[SpringingIntoAction]

You pretty much embody UKIP views though.

See, there you go again, lowering the tome of the discussion to one of attempting to ridicule someone with an alternative view.

Your views must be built on incredibly shallow grounds for you to have to keep trying to undermine mine.

What breathtaking arrogance you display in presuming to tell me what my views are. How come you know so much about UKIP's views Lurked? Are you a closet Kipper?

Anti EU, very anti immigration but pays attention to assumptions rather than facts.

Wrong.
Anti EU. Pro controlled migration, forms my own opinions rather than utilising Google search, cut and paste - bingo, which is your preferred approach.

Pie in the sky ideas about the UK being able negotiate totally beneficial trade agreements.

Pie in the sky will keep that moon made of cheese good company. You seem to be a frustrated astronomer.

Spouting economics on trade like you understand it , but blatantly don't.

How are the Hugenots doing these days? Did they all return as the report written all those centuries ago said they would. Will the Montenegrans that join the EU follow their precedent?

Yeah exactly like a UKIP voter

You seem to spend a lot of time around Kippers Lurked. You need to put down that mouse, stop clicking on outdated research and widen your social group.

Until then you will continue to be that irritating background noise that bleeds into the foreground to disrupt discussion with your unadultered hatred and abuse

[SpringingIntoAction]

The stuff the Brexit side come out with often seems to be based on assumption rathe than fact, and the information they then quote at you tends to come from sources who are pandering to their readers predjudices.

There are plenty of facts out there.

Whether you chose to believe them or ignore then is something that people do to fit their schema.

Prejudices is another strong word to attempt to tar the Leave side with . People who believe in a different approach to you are not necessarily prejudiced. It takes a level of maturity to understand that.

There seems to be a very worrying authoritarian, almost totalitarian trend within the Remain side.

I am glad the Freedom Society supports Leave.