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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

999 replies

SpringingIntoAction · 06/04/2016 16:33

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

OP posts:
butteredmuffin · 17/04/2016 19:54

I think decisions of this magnitude should be taken by people who actually have a clue what is going on and understand the issues at stake. The level of "debate" I have seen from the Brexit camp has put me in no doubt at all that the average voter is not competent to take this decision. I've felt all along that this referendum was a terrible idea. Now even my brother - who supported a referendum initially and said that the quality of the debate would be higher in the lead up to the referendum - is admitting that this has not happened.

lurked101 · 17/04/2016 20:12

That line of argument doesn't do you any favours.

butteredmuffin · 17/04/2016 20:19

That is my point of view and I make no apologies for it. The amount of misinformation out there is, frankly, terrifying. Rich, powerful, middle-aged white men who will be fine either way are blithely encouraging the electorate to vote for something which is plainly not in their best interests, and people are falling for it. It is irresponsible - deceitful, even - to let people believe that we will be able to get a deal which enables us to have control over our borders and total sovereignty over our own laws without risking terrible economic consequences. Consequences which will hit ordinary people far more than powerful politicians.

If this comes to pass, once the full extent of the fuck up is known, people will be complaining that they were lied to and misled, and that if they had understood the consequences of Brexit they would not have voted for it. But by then it will be too late.

Daisyonthegreen · 17/04/2016 20:45

buttermuffin
That's really naughty of you.
We all have our view,we see things reported on the media,it's not just websites etcetera.
Security and safety are what is paramount to a mum.
All manner of people want to Leave.
To be honest this is insulting.
Muslims for Britain,Business for Britain,Economists for Britain,Scientists for Britain to name a few support a vote to Leave.
My husband an Economist is enthusiastic about us Leaving the EU.
You are panicking
When it gets to the stage when you are virtually advocating intelligence tests before one can vote you know you are losing.
Men fought and died in ghastly circumstances to secure freedom and Democracy.
I will vote Leave because as a mum I know it's the best option for my children and family and this country in general.
We must agree to differ in time honoured fashion.
Also please there is no need to swear.

StepintotheLightleave · 17/04/2016 20:47

I've felt all along that this referendum was a terrible idea

well yes, it rings out in your posts, its clouding your judgement.

Rich, powerful, middle-aged white men who will be fine either way are blithely encouraging the electorate to vote for something which is plainly not in their best interests, and people are falling for it

yes exactly, rich powerful men who are the only people who seem to have benefited in any real way from the EU through cheap movement of labour and of course the thriving criminal market in sex slaves, drugs and guns. What a wonderful situation for them! they love it.

without risking terrible economic consequences. Consequences which will hit ordinary people far more than powerful politicians

There is a strong Brexit feeling the city from the workers. Many big businesses have come out as Brexit.

Its not cut and dried EITHER WAY.

I wonder which part of this you struggle to understand.

if they had understood the consequences of Brexit

This is again true both ways.

You dont seem to understand that no one is in control over there. Germany was the power house, Merkel was a great strong central pillar holding everything together, Merkel is now dis credited and sunk!

Merkel is bending to Tukey's will and she is putting the rights of immigrants before her own citizens. And people bleat about the EU protecting workers rights!

None of them/us can deal with the migrant crisis, people are rioting on the streets of Paris, the far right is rapidly gaining support!

StepintotheLightleave · 17/04/2016 20:49

All manner of people want to Leave

I know many people who are passionate about leaving. The most fervent advocates are however Oxbridge mainly in London.

butteredmuffin · 17/04/2016 20:50

Oh well. I have an exit strategy. I am not staying here if we leave. I feel sorry for the rest of you if it comes to that though.

lurked101 · 17/04/2016 20:53

"My husband an Economist is enthusiastic about us Leaving the EU"

I'm an economist and I think it is a terrible idea, as do many others, including the folks at the economist and people from the LSE.

www.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/news/archives/2016/02/Life-after-Brexit-new-LSE-report-on-UKs-options-outside-the-EU.aspx

StepintotheLightleave · 17/04/2016 20:58

But lurked, many from LSE who work in the city agree the only way is to leave.

I find its the same with large groups anywhere in situations, much easier to get around, move quickly do things with smaller numbers of people.

lurked101 · 17/04/2016 20:59

"The most fervent advocates are however Oxbridge mainly in London."

I know lots of people in the city that are quaking in their boots at it, especially those with links to both the US and Frankfurt. This however isn't anecdotal:

www.cityam.com/235169/these-businesses-are-backing-bremain#

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels · 17/04/2016 21:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Daisyonthegreen · 17/04/2016 21:08

Buttermuffin

A vote to Leave is really the most common sense logical option.

butteredmuffin · 17/04/2016 21:08

That's funny Daisy, because I can see very little common sense or logic in it at all.

StepintotheLightleave · 17/04/2016 21:11

Lurked,

I can say the same for people in the city, praying that people are brave enough to break free.

I cant be bothered posting links, there is no point. But people who know, know. Smile

StepintotheLightleave · 17/04/2016 21:12

Hover loads of links and data has been provided and swiftly ignored.

lurked101 · 17/04/2016 21:16

I could say the same, and I really know so some very influential people in the city.

lurked101 · 17/04/2016 21:21

Loads of links and data have been provided from partisan websites in the most case.

When links and data are provided from the other side they are ignored too, take my last one which links in over 100 executives from FTSE 250 companies.

PWC's report warns against it. HSBC may leave, the CBI back staying, so do the Car firms, so does the pharmasutical industry. The brexiters all seem to be rather on the fringe.

www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-could-cost-uk-million-jobs-100bn-says-pwc-study-1550666
next.ft.com/content/9216298e-bf67-11e5-846f-79b0e3d20eaf
uk.businessinsider.com/hsbc-eu-referendum-research-brexit-and-immigration-quality-2016-2

The headline of that last one is misleading in terms of the content.

SpringingIntoAction · 17/04/2016 22:27

Churchill was a serial adulterer, but we judge him by his (extraordinary) achievements, not his fidelity or lack thereof.

UTTER BOLLOCKS (in the legal definition of the word).

With whom is Churchill supposed to have committed adultery?

OP posts:
SpringingIntoAction · 17/04/2016 22:33

Rich, powerful, middle-aged white men who will be fine either way are blithely encouraging the electorate to vote for something which is plainly not in their best interests, and people are falling for it.

Ungrateful, as Goldman Sachs are funding the REMAIN campaign for you.

Helpful - I think Buttered is a parody account.

OP posts:
JassyRadlett · 17/04/2016 22:36

Daisy, would you please stop speaking on behalf of all mothers? It does female parents a great disservice to portray them as a group who have identical opinions or goals. And you certainly don't speak for me.

FirstVix · 18/04/2016 02:18

OK, I'll set out my most important credentials - I'm a mum Hmm (I have also tried to post this for the last 24 hours, but my comp wouldn't let me). Right, so..

Having been reading this thread for a few days from a fairly 'not sure' position I am now more inclined to vote remain. TTIP was my biggest worry - butteredmuffin's (I think) arguments about how the EU was stalling it as it had the fiscal clout to do so and wanted to improve the conditions rang true. We would not have this clout alone.

Thinking of my children's future - I am watching the state become privatised through stealth under current Tory policies (many of which were not in their manifesto - yay! Sovereignty!) and am uncertain that I could trust them, or a similarly inclined government, to protect my children's rights in the future (holiday, maternity, union membership etc).

Quite honestly, were Labour in power, especially a Corbyn-type Labour, I'd be leaning more to leave as we could then re-nationalise and I wouldn't be as scared of future (lack of) worker rights. I probably wouldn't have even thought about the economic implications in so much detail as I have read here. Similarly if we had a PR type voting system rather than FPTP (or AV as was proposed).

For me, all the arguments about how we would access the EU without a similar set up to Norway (Free movement, pay-in anyway, no say over policy) were clearly articulated and made a lot of sense - I don't believe that we would have the negotiating position that exiters think we will. I saw somewhere else (I think!) that our exports to the EU account for 8% of the EU total import and yet we import 40+% - that gives the EU a stronger hand at the negotiating table.

In terms of attacks, random insults and facts there is one side that has helped me clarify my thinking and another that has made me think 'wha...why did you say that? How does that help?'.

According to some, this makes me now #teamLurked who may or may not be a man (because this issue is strictly split down gender/maternity lines and that makes a massive difference? BTW I also am worried about my children's future - didn't realise this automatically put me in the leave camp).

As to Cameron - I wouldn't trust him and don't trust him. It's part of why I'm voting to remain.

If it's any help to those still posting, I have found the 'remainers' on this thread to be helpful and informative and feel that you have helped me clarify a lot. To the 'leavers' on the thread I have seen no helpful points at all - nothing that has made me think that leaving is good for the nation, or even made me think. There must be arguments against remaining, so why can't you share and explain them?

HelpfulChap · 18/04/2016 06:22

So Buttered brings the race card into the equation. Its all the fault of white men (has she seen the make up of thr unelected and unaccountable EC?), she has an exit strategy and she should be the arbiter of who is allowed to vote. Oh, and she hasn't got a sense of humour.

Are we supposed to be taking her seriously?

HelpfulChap · 18/04/2016 06:30

FirstVix

Good post.

As I have stated already, when the Remain posters come out with stuff like Brexit voters are ignorant and uneducated and either shouldn't have the vote or their vote shouldn't be worth as much as Remainers, (ie, like Nazis) the inclination to debate soon evaporates.

When they gang up on bully and patronise certain posters as a group and think they are clever doing it then many of us decided to disengage.

If you have decided to vote stay that is your democratic right and I respect that. Shame the other Remain posters don't think the same way.

Daisyonthegreen · 18/04/2016 07:43

Helpful chap
Your post Mon18 :16 06 22:21
You made me smile,you hit the nail on the head.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels · 18/04/2016 08:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.