AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

[SpringingIntoAction]

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

*butteredmuffin

littledrummergirl, that is a much more sensible point. Thank you.*

And thank you so much for your patronizing acknowledgement.

I am still struggling to find any coherent points on either side of the debate. It's easier to look at the opinions and lies of the in campaign as they are more readily available. Its unfortunate that so much opinion is touted as fact.

It's also frustrating when you look at links like the above to a website which claims to be independent but find that those who have funded it-either the organisation or the stakeholders, trustees etc- are invested in the EU.

Disclaimer- I only had my lunch hour to explore the links so I only got through five or six of the organisation's.

I am still deciding and need facts.

I am hoping people wanting to debate properly will appear nearer the time.

You misread that, Lumela.

Someone was complaining that she can't vote on the actions of the Commission. So I thought it would be helpful to have, on this thread, an explanation of the relationship between the unelected Commission and the elected Parliament.

Sorry if something in my syntax left that unclear.

#TeamLurked Cameron fan-boys

The biggest plus is that it's largely kept the peace in Europe since WWII

I strongly disagree with this point.

No one wanted war after WWII there was no appetite for it, let alone ££££.

If anything, its now fueling the Rise of the Far Right, and tensions are reaching boiling point on the continent.

As I said earlier, the deeper the conditioning (brainwashing) the nastier the attitude. It's the conditioned part of the brain fighting to suppress any glimmer of free thought.

"The sneery bit about the sort of foreign cars that naice people like us would buy was also a howler."

That I believe was in response to your comment, something along the lines of that we make cars in this country and that it wouldn't matter if the prices of cars from abroad went up. I believe she was commenting that many of the cars we make here are luxury so it wouldn't leave a lot of choice for many.

Ah, the Vastly Superior Buttered has their own interpreter now. Enjoy that job Lurked. That must be why they call it #TeamLurked

But in that piece above, in your eagerness to defend Buttered's homework-wot-she-knocked-out-on-the-train you have misrepresented my views -again.

Guess what? We make cars in this country. Guess what? Outside the EU we could ensure that our public services used British-built cars wherever possible, something the EU prohibits at present. Doing that would mean we wouldn't have to import so many foreign cars in the first place.

After all, what is a car for but for getting from A to B? In most cases a British built car would suffice - you are a REMAIN voter who sneers at British cars because they think that naice, superior people, the sort of people who can afford £4 for a bag of pasta deserve 'foreign cars'.

You're rather goady the pair of you.

Lol. I shall risk some humour here. "You started it. You invaded Poland".

Please explain this reference to Fawlty Towers to Buttered. Please feel free to use drawings if it helps

That escalated quickly.

The Leave contingent have "arguments" worthy of David Coburn himself. The Remains, in contrast, have shown themselves capable of logical, reasoned thought.

Can you name me any British built/owned cars Springing?

Littledrummergirl

There is a separate section on MN called EU Referendum 2016 - it's in the section of MN called Other Stuff.

AIBU is not really the best place to look for information. I started this thread to discuss the implications of TTIP following David Owen's warnings but sensible discussion became impossible as the abuse from the Remain side and #TeamLurked prevented a free exchange of ideas.

There will be a lot more information available when the official Leave side is appointed by the Electoral Commission and both sides get access to publicity

"Guess what? We make cars in this country"

Guess what? The EU is one of the reasons we make cars in this country. The access to the European market is what keeps Vauxhall producing at Elsmere port, Honda at Swindon and Nissan at Sunderland. If access to that market was restricted or inhibited it would be likely that these firms would lower production or leave all together. One of the reasons they are here is because cars imported from outside the EU are subject to a 10% import tax, so it makes them more competitive to build here than in Japan/The States.

Our other car firms are almost all exclusively foriegn owned, except for the smaller producers of Morgan, McLaren etc.

I don't think I started any name calling on these

Can you name me any British built/owned cars Springing?

I could

Please PM me with your contact details and we can discuss my charges for undertaking your research for you.

I have read stuff there but it's very quiet. Will keep popping back though.
Thanks Spring. It's a shame this thread was derailed as TTIP is such an important consideration.

"Guess what? We make cars in this country"

Guess what? The EU is one of the reasons we make cars in this country.

Nonsense

The access to the European market is what keeps Vauxhall producing at Elsmere port, Honda at Swindon and Nissan at Sunderland. If access to that market was restricted or inhibited it would be likely that these firms would lower production or leave all together. One of the reasons they are here is because cars imported from outside the EU are subject to a 10% import tax, so it makes them more competitive to build here than in Japan/The States.

You forget. When we are freed from the shackles of the EU we can make our own laws and own trade deals. The 'as is' situation is then history. What a woefully narrow export market the EU confines us to.

Our other car firms are almost all exclusively foriegn owned, except for the smaller producers of Morgan, McLaren etc.

I said 'British built' not 'British owned'.

Come off it apart from the obvious high end models you'd struggle, which is why you are not backing up YOUR point by naming them.

You are completely ignoring the fact that if we leave, so will many of the manufacturing facilities. Why would they stay? And British built cars rarely stay in the UK market, or get sold cheaper here than elsewhere merely because they were built here.

"You forget. When we are freed from the shackles of the EU we can make our own laws and own trade deals. The 'as is' situation is then history. What a woefully narrow export market the EU confines us to. "

Can you offer me an example of another country that has neogtiated a trade deal with the EU ljke the one your discussing? Other than that we have to look to Norway and Switzerland's examples.

Honda, Nissan and Vauxhall are here to take advantage of the EU rules. If we leave there is a distinct possibility that they would move production and certainly down scale, we don't consumer the 300,000 or so Nissan's produced at Sunderland in this country MOST of them are produed for consumption in the EU.

Would Volkswagen keep the Crewe plant for Bentley or BMW keep Rolls Royce going with this increased cost? Probably, but the as the engines are imported from Germany it would depend on what costs to imports here etc.

I definately think BMW would move mini, another 10% onon top of what is the most expensive car in its market may be critical.

As some of you may know (no, forget that - unlikely on here), Sweden has launched Phone a Random Swede hotline.
+46 771 793 336 Shall we phone and ask a Swede what he/she thinks of the EU now?

Honda staying regardless of EU referendum result

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-3473431/Honda-invests-200m-Swindon-plant-confirming-new-10th-generation-Civic-hatchback-built-no-matter-outcome-EU-referendum.html

Toyota staying regardless of EU referendum result

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1afaf414-b81f-11e5-b151-8e15c9a029fb.html

Vauxhall staying regardless of referendum result:

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11866869/Ignore-the-scaremongers-manufacturing-powerhouse-Vauxhall-says-it-would-be-fine-outside-the-EU.html

Aston Martin building new factory in Wales - i'm not suggesting we drive around in Aston Martins before you pile in.

Car manufacturers realise that Britain In or OUT of the EU is a good place to manufacture despite their overheads in exporting their product to mainland Europe and despite the £ / Euro conversion fluctuations.

Another REMAIN myth busted

Not quite :

Toyota said on the 3rd of March that they would cut back after the three years of current investment are over if we exited EU.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/03/uk-motor-industry-backs-uk-remaining-in-europe-survey-eu-positive-impacy

Also the industry mouthpiece the SMMT says that 77% of its members (88% of the larger manufacturers would prefer to stay in the EU). The majority of firms say that BREXIT would negatively effect their business.

www.smmt.co.uk/2016/03/101076/

Its not a myth, its an issue, and there would be long terms issues if we leave the EU.

Mike Hawes, SMMT Chief Executive, said, “The message from UK Automotive is clear – being in Europe is vital for the future of this industry and to secure jobs, investment and growth. UK Automotive is thriving, with record car exports, new registrations and the highest manufacturing levels for a decade. Our industry supports 800,000 jobs across the UK and contributes more than £15 billion to the UK economy – our members have clearly stated that pulling out of Europe could jeopardise this."

So we are right to raise it as an issue.

Sorry if something in my syntax left that unclear.
It left it totally unclear.

Ooh, couldn't leave without this - Brexit myth no.1. They have been approved, not without some minor discrepancies, but they have quite definitely been approved!

I went and had a look here

The EU budget contained €142.5 billion of spending in 2014. In every area of the budget (apart from administration), and overall, enough spending fell outside of the proper procedures to pass the 2% 'materiality threshold'—the point at which the auditors view these 'errors' as significant.

Overall, 4.4% of the EU's spending didn't follow the rules and accordingly shouldn't have been paid out.

So the accounts are signed off, but the overall level of error - which comes in at the level of national governments - is on the high side.