AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

[SpringingIntoAction]

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

butteredmuffin, are you up for doing an explanation of the relationship between the European Commission and the European Parliament (which we do vote for)?

I know this is available from other sources, but your earlier post was well written, and people were saying they found the thread informative (before it went weird).

It's not a bad idea to have stuff in the same place.

I agree about the employment legislation bit and also that one of the reasons that some of the business leaders on Brexit side want to leave is because they feel they would be able to get away with more exploititative practices without EU legislation.

nobody pandered to Islamists the Labour Government even brought in new anti terror laws and the racial hatered act in order to be stricter.

You must live in a cave, then Lurko, because everyone knows that Act is invoked only one way. That is why muslims participating in violent demos with placards stating Death to Democracy, Kill British Soldiers, 9/11 for Britain, etc etc are never cautioned, never arrested. Do you remember Rotherham, Oxford, et al? Do you actually know anything?

because they feel they would be able to get away with more exploititative practices without EU legislation.

I only see big business gaining from the freedom of movement we already have. Why on earth would your average young Briton want to compete against jobs in his own country with men who live crowded in lodgings to save up as much ££ as possible to send home where its worth a fortune?

They are laughing all the way to bank, and they have the most wonderful excuse too...The brits are lazy, they don't want to work etc. Its far easier to exploit people who have little English, and no knowledge of their rights.

Its easier to exploit them not only in the work place, but also ruthless landlords putting them up in slums. Why would anyone except Big Business want to keep this detrimental toxic cycle going .

Well unless you own a factory, and are a landlord renting out these slums?

littledrummergirl, that is a much more sensible point. Thank you.

yes, you are quite correct Littledrummergirl. You can remove the domestic Westminster Government but you can never remove the EU.

Unfortunately, due to our unfair and unrepresentative voting system in the UK, my vote will never count for anything unless I move to a different constituency, so I can't vote to get rid of the Tories any more than I can get rid of the European Commission.

irrelevant twaddle and a shameful conflation from someone who professes to be a lawyer.

And what the UK government does affects our lives far more than what the EU does.

Sweeping, unfounded statement.

That's why I can't understand why all the people voting for Brexit because they think the EU is undemocratic (a perfectly legitimate point of view) haven't been actively campaigning for electoral reform since they reached the age of 18 and realised what a joke the whole system is.

Let's analyse this. This is someone who acknowledges the EU is undemocratic yet plans to vote FOR it, while bemoaning the so-called lack of democracy in SOME elections in the UK.

That's another illogical contortion.

Until this EU debate, I had literally no idea people cared so much about democracy.

That's Beacuse in your misplaced superior you think that other people think the say misguided way as you do when in fact most people do actually realise that 'ever closer union' is not the soundbite that you attempt to dismiss it as, but is a key tenet of the European Experiment that you actively promote.

Democracy is not something to be given up lightly. As you will find when the UK BREXITs

Rotherham is a completely different case isn't it though, more to do with the police not doing their jobs properly.

Abu Hamza was arressted and convicted under the 2006 act so I'm not sure why you think its all one way?

Do you actually know anything?

Why I think I have demonstrated on here that actually yes I do. Play nicely.

The men and women from Poland and the Baltics especially are here to work and earn as much as they can. Four or five of them rent a semi and that is how they get by for accommodation, very cheaply. Some work 'off the cards' so there is no £ contribution from them for tax or NI, and there is no expenditure on luxuries because whatever is left over is sent back home.

However, as child credit is now paid to Polish children who have never stepped foot in the UK most Poles are registering and working PAYE. It's to their advantage because they also claim working tax credits, pension credit and in some cases income support. They are sorted.

There are several excellent Polish-run money transfer places which will transfer to anywhere in Europe and not charge an arm and a leg as Western Union does.

MyHovercraft

Still sneering and looking down your nose at anyone you deem to be less intelligent than yourself I see.

Must be a bit embarrassing that your BFF doesn't know the difference between Karl and Groucho Marx.

I say I say I say.....

Rotherham is a completely different case isn't it though, more to do with the police not doing their jobs properly.
Not entirely, No. For 10 yrs those girls were raped though police, council and child protection knew but they were so PC they did nothing except bury that tragedy.

Abu Hamza was arressted and convicted under the 2006 act so I'm not sure why you think its all one way?
It took 10 yrs to get Hamza out of UK, and each time he went to court he was provided an expensive Barrister paid for by the taxpayer. In the end, it was only thru the due diligence of the U.S. Govt and evidence they produced that finally got the shitbag deported to USA to stand trial. His wife and very large family are still here being supported by us. None of them work and have not done so since their arrival in the UK 20 yrs ago.

I was right, your knowledge is very limited and driven by ideology which means ignoring what is in front of your face.

Ah the same un fair voting system that got blair in for what seemed like hellish eternity.

That's the chap. The one where relatively small changes in the popular vote in a minority of seats translate to disproportionately large swings in Parliamentary representation, with an increasingly distant relationship between votes and representation.

My knolwedge is limited cut?

I'm on the floor laughing at that comment. :) Thanks for cheering me up.

That's Beacuse in your misplaced superior you think that other people think the say misguided way as you do when in fact most people do actually realise that 'ever closer union' is not the soundbite that you attempt to dismiss it as, but is a key tenet of the European Experiment that you actively promote.

No, it's probably because they looked at the result of the AV referendum and realised most folk didn't give a flying fuck about representative democracy.

butteredmuffin, are you up for doing an explanation of the relationship between the European Commission and the European Parliament (which we do vote for)?

Lol! Don't you even know the basics?

Do we really need another Here's-my-essay-wot-I-knocked-up-on-the-train?

I ask because I still haven't finished laughing from the last one.

I especially liked the doom-merchant stuff bits about starvation and rationing. Vote Remain or they'll cut off your food supply. So sad to think that you won't even be able to buy a packet of pasta even if you are able to pay £4 for it.

The sneery bit about the sort of foreign cars that naice people like us would buy was also a howler

You missed the bit about dinosaurs stalking the Watford Gap.

Your lack of humour is matched only by your woeful lack of self-awareness.

But keep going. This is great stuff for the LEAVE vote.

Should the good democratically minded people of the UK fall for your Project Fear guff and we do remain in, I can imagine you Buttered, in another 40 years time, leading the OUT campaign wailing 'They lied to us back in 2016 when they made me vote for Mr Cameron to preserve workers rights and the NHS'.

Lol. What an utterly facile, infantile ridiculous dishonest position (can't even grace it with the legitimacy of calling it an argument) the REMAIN campaign has

I think Lurko needs to get back to the darkness of his garden shed. Otherwise he might have another turn.

Actually, buttered, I'm going to withdraw my request for another of your summaries, a few posts up.

The derailers have well and truly drowned the thread.

They've taken some lessons from the CyberNats. Debating the issues with facts and reasonable discussion is so passé and dull when you can just attack or mock people instead.

So those who were shouting about name calling earlier are doing it themselves now?

Lovely.

"The sneery bit about the sort of foreign cars that naice people like us would buy was also a howler."

That I believe was in response to your comment, something along the lines of that we make cars in this country and that it wouldn't matter if the prices of cars from abroad went up. I believe she was commenting that many of the cars we make here are luxury so it wouldn't leave a lot of choice for many.

You're rather goady the pair of you.

X-posted with Springing there.

No mate, I just thought it would be helpful to have stuff together.

But info's starting to look a bit lonely on this thread amid all the personal jibes and weird accusations of cabals and general shrieking. So probably a waste of time.

Actually, buttered, I'm going to withdraw my request for another of your summaries, a few posts up.

Glad you recognised its shortfalls.

The derailers have well and truly drowned the thread.

IRONY KLAXON - PEAK IRONY HAS BEEN REACHED.

Debating the issues with facts and reasonable discussion is so passé and dull when you can just attack or mock people instead

Debate is indeed hard with posters like Lurked on a thread

hollow lies

But anyway, thanks folks for the informative posts earlier on.

butteredmuffin, are you up for doing an explanation of the relationship between the European Commission and the European Parliament (which we do vote for)?
Bloody hell. I'm an undecided on the EU vote, because I don't feel I know enough yet to come to a sensible decision, but I do know that the parliament is elected and the Commission isn't. And people who don't know the difference are pontificating about how to vote?

The EU has always struck me as extremely undemocratic (and I do care about democracy). I'm also aware that the EU hasn't had its accounts approved for donkey's years. These are all major minus points, as far as I'm concerned.

The biggest plus is that it's largely kept the peace in Europe since WWII.