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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

999 replies

SpringingIntoAction · 06/04/2016 16:33

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

OP posts:
butteredmuffin · 08/04/2016 17:09

"Speaking on the EU he said 'I don't want to join any club that would have me as a member'."

HelpfulChap

  1. That is a quote from a letter of resignation he wrote to his private members' club in 1967. (And he was actually quoting Jolyon Forsyte, a character in John Galworthy's novel "The Forsyte Saga", which was published in 1922.)
  1. Groucho Marx was an American who died in the 1970s. Funnily enough, he didn't actually have a great deal to say about the EU.

But don't let the facts stop you from using a random quote to suit your own agenda. Plenty of other people are doing it.

HildurOdegard · 08/04/2016 17:11

#TeamLurked - hahaha bless you. Labour party aren't out of touch. Have you been to Easterhouse recently? Have you ever been outside the north circular?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/04/2016 17:11

I simply feel it does you a disservice if you refuse to believe in your own beliefs

Wow Shock I've always been taught (I believe correctly) that it is very important to continuously question my beliefs, and make sure that what they are based on is sound. I guess this is where the head v heart thing comes in to play...

HildurOdegard · 08/04/2016 17:13

OK, started reading this thread an hour ago - with a small amount of engagement I've managed to ascertain that the "Remain vote" here believe that the Labour party is in touch with the common man and also that they're planning to do what David Cameron has told them to do.

That's me done, it's clear to me ; arse/elbow are intertwined. They've not got a danny.

butteredmuffin · 08/04/2016 17:13

HildurOdegard

Surely you must be trolling. I don't understand how anyone could seriously be pursuing this line of argument.

Let's say I am a Lib Dem voter. The Lib Dems have always been pro EU and still are. The Lib Dems are recommending we vote remain.

How it is logical for me to vote "leave" (even though I personally want to remain) because David Cameron is saying we should vote "remain" and I'm not a Tory?

That makes literally no sense.

HildurOdegard · 08/04/2016 17:14

ItsAllGoingToBeFine - question all you like, continue to educate yourself (you've scope) - but once you've reached a conclusion don't be afraid to voice it. It'll come with maturity, don't worry. x

CutTheWaffle · 08/04/2016 17:14

Buttered re Marx. Please get a sense of humour, sweetheart. You are allowed to be serious and funny you know. I'm just wondering when you have time for being a lawyer, studying and spending all day here on MN. Amazing.

HelpfulChap · 08/04/2016 17:14

Buttered

Oh, really? It must have been the other Marx.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/04/2016 17:16

As a veteran of the IndyRef threads I can say that deliberately derailing a thread via goading or straw man arguments is a very common tactic.

HelpfulChap · 08/04/2016 17:16

CutThe

I thought it was funny and even in context.

Maybe a bit to low-brow?

butteredmuffin · 08/04/2016 17:17

CutTheWaffle, in the interests of factual accuracy, I thought it was worth pointing out that when HelpfulChap said Groucho Marx was "speaking on the EU", he wasn't actually talking about the EU at all. I'm sorry you find facts so tedious.

I am not at work today. If I were, I wouldn't be posting on here.

HelpfulChap · 08/04/2016 17:18

ItsAll

The Brexit posters were all playing nicely until the insults started to get thrown about.

Shame.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/04/2016 17:19

once you've reached a conclusion don't be afraid to voice it. It'll come with maturity, don't worry.

Aw thanks hun xxx

I plan to keep on learning and questioning throughout my life. I think assuming ones conclusions are always correct is a bit of mistake TBH. By I really appreciate you sharing the wisdom of your years with me.

butteredmuffin · 08/04/2016 17:20

Have I called anyone any names? I thought I'd been very careful not to, which has been very difficult at times.

SpringingIntoAction · 08/04/2016 17:22

Helpful

Groucho was my favourite. Speaking on the EU he said 'I don't want to join any club that would have me as a member'.

Humour ist verboten

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/04/2016 17:23

HelpfulChap I enjoyed your Groucho Marx quote Smile

butteredmuffin · 08/04/2016 17:24

The quote is fine. I was simply pointing out that it had nothing to do with the EU. Hmm

HelpfulChap · 08/04/2016 17:28

Harpo?

SpringingIntoAction · 08/04/2016 17:30

I am not at work today. If I were, I wouldn't be posting on here

Hmm
OP posts:
butteredmuffin · 08/04/2016 17:31

No, you were right first time. The quote was by Groucho Marx and had nothing to do with the EU.

If you had said, "As Groucho Marx once said, I wouldn't want to join any club which would have me as a member", that would actually have made sense. But you seemed to be saying he was talking about the EU when he said it. Apologies if I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Anyway, I'm going to go and hit a squash ball against a wall whilst pretending it is Boris Johnson's head. And then have a glass of wine.

Let's all just chill out a bit, eh?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/04/2016 17:31

Harpo?

Honk Honk

Pretty similar to the current "debate" on this thread really...

lurked101 · 08/04/2016 17:42

You mean the Labour party whose policies were to incrase the minimum wage, cut university fees, repeal the privatisation of the NHS and cap private profits from it etc etc. Yes I do think they are in touch.

I've already spelled it out above, the Tories are very good at painnting theseves as the party of the omm0n man but it doesn't take much effort to look at the information of who benefits from their policies. The Tax theshold increases even benefit those on higher incomes than lower, the cuts in progressive taxation (income, capital gains and corporation) are balanced with inceases to regressive taxes such as VAT of which the poor pay proportionaly more of their income in.

AS previously stated many of their ations since being reelected are to suit a small elite of very wealthy people and big business. Whilst many of the promises that they made about not cutting in work benefits have been renged on ( and only didn't occur because they were forced to) others such as their ring fencing of money for education have been proved to be white lies (because its ring fenced but static it doesnt change in real terms) whilst still others like the free childcare have been put on the back burner. All at the same time when things that had no mandate that serve the corporate interest such as doctors contracts and acadmiess.

You can throw around terms like "regressive left" all you like but as I previously said above its a very clever tactic used by the right to appeal to the everyman, whilst at the same time implementing policies which are actually adverse for him.

Lets look at who keeps putting this "Labour out of touch" agenda up, the millionaire priv ately educated tory front bench, Etonian Boris Johnson, Tax avoiding billionaires the Barclays , non dom Rothmere etc. Trump and Bush have used it very well in the states. But its bollocks, sorry.

Oh and Yes I have been outside the North Cicular, I'm from a mining/steel town in County Durham and my mother is from Glasgow. But tell you what, I've never walked around Easterhouses like IDS and shown "compassion" and then contrived to kick the poor where it hurts. How patronising for you to ask me that question.

HelpfulChap · 08/04/2016 17:50

With Cameron on the ropes, Corbyn shot himself in the foot not standing by his beliefs on Europe.

If Cameron were to fall on his sword, Corbyn would end up leading the Stay camp.

Poisoned chalice.

lurked101 · 08/04/2016 17:52

I genuinely think its the other way around helpful, when the people who vote for brexit see the economic mess that follows those that took us out will find themselves very unpopular. Oh and whatever, Boris will not lead the tory party now.

SpringingIntoAction · 08/04/2016 17:53

Lets look at who keeps putting this "Labour out of touch" agenda up, the millionaire priv ately educated tory front bench, Etonian Boris Johnson

He doesn't sit on the front bench. He sits mainly on Cameron's left a row or so above and towards the wall of the chamber.

I've already spelled it out above, the Tories are very good at painnting theseves as the party of the omm0n man but it doesn't take much effort to look at the information of who benefits from their policies

That's why you're voting for their policy to stay in the EU. Grin

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