AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

[SpringingIntoAction]

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

Oh - I thought they were members of the Conservative Party with a political agenda.

You seem to be making a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions . I have no idea why, but I'm guessing you think it makes you look more intelligent (See? I can do it too!).

No, that's not the reason. Now you really are talking like a petulant 18 yr old actually. It's because most of you are all so hostile, unpleasant and without a sense of humour, that you do remind me of people (from my uni studies) who have been brainwashed. One rule of thumb is that the more hostile and derogatory a person is, the more effective the inculcation/brainwashing has been.

When I started reading this thread that ranting guy Davis, the chief spokesperson of the Church of Scientology, flashed into my mind. That's who some of you remind me of.

"So are the Remain tribe choosing to remain because they're Tory?"

HildurOdegard, I would be very surprised if anyone was voting remain because they're a Tory.

For me, the only silver lining in the event of a "leave" result would be witnessing Cameron's total humiliation on 24th June and then watching Boris realise just how badly he has fucked up when he's the one in charge and has to actually deal with the aftermath.

'I think it's because they haven't thought about the questions before and haven't formed their own opinion on the matter. Because usually they just speak to their friends who share their views that the EU is an evil dictatorship and none of these people ever actually ask them to justify their opinion, so they don't know what to do when someone puts them on the spot.'

Do you?

Doubt it myself.

Of course generally the Tories show more decorum, it is most strange. It's like the Student Union bar with Jocasta the LUG (Tory parents natch.) and Swampy's disciples.

I think place like Twitter and Facebook can become a bit of an echo chamber as often we follow those with the same views. Threads like this are very good to challenge your own ideas, and see things from someone else's viewpoints. It would be useful if people could back up their assertions with references though, and answer questions to help others understand how their opinions were formed.

I think it is fairly obvious that none of the main protagonists on this thread will be drastically changing their views, but there may well be undecided lurkers which is why references etc are useful.

How very patronising of you cut, even if that were true you can't say that we don't rely on our own observations. I'm a Londer too and I think the mix in the city is fantastic.

My own observation would be that many of the issues used by the Brexit camp are often given to people who feel that they have little or no control of their situation you know EU allows immigration which threatens jobs, pressures services, causes house prices/rents to rise etc etc. The EU makes laws that make British businesses more difficult to run, the EU threatens national soveriegnty and traditional British ways of life. The Pancea to which would be leaving the EU.

I "obsereve" that the tactic of appealing to those who feel disenfracnhised and threatened by a situation is a very common elelment of politics. Many of the Brexiteers are possitioning themselves in the same manner as Trump you know plain speaking and defending ordinary people's rights against a liberal elite.

The thing is though as much as this is proported to be their stance it is little other than electioneering. On the back of support from the wealthy non dom tax avoiding Barclay brothers and Rothmere's , the disingenious and power hungry Murdoch , led by that well known self made egalitarion (snigger) Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, the Brexiteers will allow these changes to be made because they are led to believe that it is in their advantage.

Sadly, the only people that Johnson and his ilk represent are those of a very wealthy and small elite and the reason they want to leave the EU is because it forces them to do things that for the sake of their workers decreases profits.

With the last election as well, the Conservatives campaigned cleverly blaming profligrate Labour for the financial woes of the country, and that Labour were run buy an out of touch North London elite ( which actually when said toward EM could have been taken as thinly veiled anti semitism), and that they were best to represent the working man.

Its frankly brilliant to get people to vote for parties (Repubicans and Conservatives and the Brexit groups) who actually do not represent their interests at all. But people buy into it

buttered - if you're so "anti" Tory, why are you towing the party line? Do you put your cross on the ballot paper other than where you've told your pals you're planning to? Is that routine? It must be very hard for you to know what to do for the best in this instance. #SJWDilemmas

I don't think it unreasonable for the "Brexit-Curious" to ask questions of those people in order to learn more about the issues from the other "side

I think in all honesty the only really big argument INNERS have is - to ask impossible questions of people who want out, impossible in that - no one can say exactly what trade deal we will strike, exactly how we will set up work permits to control the people who come to work here in a civilized and orderly fashion, exactly how we will set up many things after Brexit because no one can know can they? We can look to other countries and see what they have but we don't have to replicate what they do - but we can see what they do do!

But at the same time, looking at the seething, writhing mess of Europe right now, the lies, ( The ECJ abusing its own procedures), the massive security mistakes, the non existent border controls meaning a "staggering" amount of Jihdis are in EU right now, fresh from Syria....roaming at will, the Turkey shenanigans...ie pretending its a safe country to send migrants back too, (and all the messy problems that whole scenario entails, Cologne), the Migrant issues causing problems in Sweden, Denmark etc and then the treatment of Greece etc how can anyone who wants to vote in, possibly say what will happen there either?
Its staggering on its feet economically and would be nothing without Germany, you could say its condemned a whole generation, and increased poverty.

Every single day - fresh fears about the collapse of the EU, every single day! And the pressure on free movement of people, the fundamental crux of this whole sorry project which has been abused by mass murders, from a murderous cult who want to commit more murder.

If one was reading this in a fantastical futuristic book, one would think its a step too far in the unbelievable realms.

So keep asking questions that are hard to answer but I would also add, do not be too sure of the status quo, on the in side either....

ItsAllGoingToBeFine - how on earth can you expect someone who's been on this planet 40-50 years with 20+ years experience of living overseas to have documented each and every article they've ever read, each live-stream media ever watched and every conversation ever held? That's utterly absurd. Intelligent People draw conclusions on more than simply one email from the Guardian.

Hildur Oh - I thought they were members of the Conservative Party with a political agenda.

They are on the whole Marxist-Regressive Left-No Borders.

But they're voting Tory. Is not that not terribly confusing for them? That's an awful lot of tie-dye cloth to be rending.

how on earth can you expect someone who's been on this planet 40-50 years with 20+ years experience of living overseas to have documented each and every article they've ever read, each live-stream media ever watched and every conversation ever held? That's utterly absurd. Intelligent People draw conclusions on more than simply one email from the Guardian.

I completely agree. The issue is that personal experience isn't actually that useful in forming an accurate picture of things. Anecdata does not equal data etc.The EU referendum is a huge thing, and there are actually decent primary sources out there if you know where to look, hence why references are helpful.

I realise that the sum total of my life experience is not broad enough data for me to form an opinion on what is best for the majority of the UK. Hence the request for data.

Love the way Marxist is thrown around as an insult btw, any of you ever studied Marx? Theres a lot of his economic theory that very accurately describes situations today.

, and that Labour were run buy an out of touch North London elite ( which actually when said toward EM could have been taken as thinly veiled anti semitism)

I think you will find claims of anti semistim are rocking the Labour party.

The labour party are out of touch its not a claim, its the truth. In fact its this very refusal to admit this that drives people away.

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/jeremy-corbyn-urged-to-investigate-antisemitism-claims-against-oxford-university-labour-club-a3182691.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12181673/Labour-anti-Semitism-row-threatens-to-divide-the-Party.html
www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/7049391/Jeremy-

Corbyns-brother-attacks-Zionist-Jewish-Labour-MP.html
Just two weeks after Labour leader Corbyn promised to do more to tackle anti-Semitism within his own party, astrophysicist and weather expert Piers Corbyn has landed him in more hot water.

Responding to a story about Jewish Labour MP Louise Ellman saying not enough is being done to tackle the problem within the party, he defended those accused and wrote: “Zionists can’t cope with anyone supporting rights for Palestine.”

Why? Will you be mail-shotting the "majority of the UK"?

Makes no sense. You either believe in your opinion or you don't. Stop quacking about the greater good and educating the eejits - it makes you look stupid.

StepintotheLight Thanks for the sources!

"buttered - if you're so "anti" Tory, why are you towing the party line?"

HildurOdegard, there is no "party line". This referendum is not divided along party lines. In case you hadn't noticed, half the Tories are campaigning to leave and the other half are campaigning to remain.

Despite Jeremy Corbyn's evident personal reservations about the EU, he is recommending that we remain in, and the Labour party as a whole (barring a few high profile dissenters such as Kate Hoey) are a lot more united in saying we should remain.

The Liberal Democrats have always been pro EU. The Greens have some concerns about the EU but they are also supporting the remain side.

The way I see it, the "party lines" are as follows:

If you are a UKIP voter, you vote leave.
If you are a Labour voter, you vote remain.
If you are Lib Dem voter, you vote remain.
If you are a Green voter, you vote remain.
If you are a Tory voter...well, fuck knows.

So I really don't follow your logic at all.

Makes no sense. You either believe in your opinion or you don't. Stop quacking about the greater good and educating the eejits - it makes you look stupid.

Was that aimed at me

1. I'd hope that everybody is voting based on what is best for most people in the long term.
2. I think it's very sad that you feel education is a bad thing.

If it was aimed at you, she also called you an "eejit". As the person you were talking about educating was yourself.

I have studied Marx

Groucho was my favourite. Speaking on the EU he said 'I don't want to join any club that would have me as a member'.

Astute fella.

StepintoTheLight I think you will find claims of anti semistim are rocking the Labour party.

Yes, it seems the muslim presence in the Labour Party, local councils and quangos has succeeded in 'turning' some in the party against Jewish people. That's why we see the unusual alliance of the Socialist Workers Party with fundamentalist Islam, whereas before you would not see both of them in the same room. It's one of several unholy alliances that hv been formed for politically expedient reasons. They are part of the Regressive Left.

Oh dear - no insults. I simply feel it does you a disservice if you refuse to believe in your own beliefs but instead demand printed data (by peer reviewed independent sources) to justify your own beliefs and dress it up as "I neeeeeeeed this information because I need to be able to take it to 60 million Brits".

Have the courage in your convictions to say "I believe" or "I choose". You will find it liberating if you can step away from the starting blocks.

You are harming yourself or your own intelligence by refusal to accept it.

I know one of the people at the heart of that antisemitic debate, he's a loony, I'd never have picked him as a representitive of an average member of the Labour Party.

I still think the "north London Geek" thing aimed at Ed Milliband, the taking photos of him eating a bacon sandwich etc were fairly anti semitic.

I also think that any criticism of Israel for years has been attatcked with accusations of anti semitism, when frankly you can be critical of Israel and their human rights record, their contevening of UN security council declarations and the way the treat the property rights of Palestinians yet not be antisemitic.

"The labour party are out of touch its not a claim, its the truth. In fact its this very refusal to admit this that drives people away."

I don't think the Labour party are out of touch, its very clever campaigning by the opposing side that casts them as so.

Look at the major Tory policy announcements since the election, Junior Doctors Contracts, Acadmisation of all schools and lots of others, non of which was in thier manifesto, non of which they are mandated to do, but the stuff they were mandated to do extra free childcare, protect the NHS, improve the economy etc they aren't succeeding at.

The Labour Party are out of touch thing is the "liberal elite" thing its like pot calling kettle, but people buy into it

buttered - my apologies - I should've made myself clearer. You're voting the way David Cameron has asked the GP to vote. Well done you! Obedient citizens are always required. :)