AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

[SpringingIntoAction]

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

But those people wouldn't have known that, their parents or more likely their grandparents were Irish. There are lots of complaints about "immigrants" coming in, their kids schools having pupils from many different back grounds etc. Although they do seem to like the Polish, lots of praise for their work ethic. But there is lots blamed on immigration, such as rising house prices with the odd thing that all of them rave about how much their property has gone up. A lot of the effects of gentrification seem to laid at the doors of immigration too.

Generally really nice people but the gentrification of QP is not down to immigration.

and I've never spoken to any of the other posters either.

"So I've never experienced this? So in my native north east the dislike of Polish people coming in to work wasn't xenephobia? The continual complaining about immigrants costing the country money ( disproved). In my local pub (strangley a lot of it from generally lovely Irish decsent working class folk that still reside in the area of the Queens Park People's Front) the constant complaint about "immigrants" isn't xenephobia?"

That is not xenophobia. That is profound disagreement and inability to influence the law that allows a sizeable number of Poles or others to suddenly arrive in your neighbourhood; talk about immigrants costing or not costing the country is legitimate pub talk. (I work for the DoHealth and refugees specifically have had a massive impact on health budgets - but that's another story).

Go to Pakistan where my father comes from. You will know what xenophobia looks like .... usually beaten and huddled on the ground. What you think is the British being xenophobic or scared of change is not true at all.

The more a country retains its characteristics, traditions and outlook the more welcoming its people are towards newcomers.

'But HelpfulChap, if you disagree with the view some of us have that Brexit voters are uninformed, you would help your case considerably by demonstrating that you are informed. And yet you appear to be refusing to do so.'

Heck - there are considerable pressures to answer questions on this thread.

Could answers be put on a postcard?

That would be an alternative.

I disagree.

I think that your point about control of laws is incorrect xenephobia always rears its head due to proximity, if there are people from another country here it makes it easier for certain types to dislike them. The complaints in the North East were very much of the Schrodingers immigrant type, what was even more annoying is the complaints about "taking jobs" is blatantly ridiculous because a lot of the jobs that were taken were in factories and organisations that had trouble filling posts.

"Go to Pakistan where my father comes from. You will know what xenophobia looks like .... usually beaten and huddled on the ground" How does that demeonstrate Xenephobia? Beaten and huddled on the ground for what? Of which nation? As by definition: "Dislike or predjudice against people from other countries."

"The more a country retains its characteristics, traditions and outlook the more welcoming its people are towards newcomers."

I disagree with this as well, the more diverse a country and certainly an area of a country, the less likely prejudices are. Certainly in this country, proved if you look the areas that vote UKIP and the % of immigrants and ethnic minorities, less diverse the more prejdices are prevelant.

Heck - there are considerable pressures to answer questions on this thread.

It was really just because HelpfulChap kept insisting that he had fully considered all the issues and yet was unable or unwilling to answer even the most basic questions about how he had formed his opinion. Most frustrating for anyone who wants to understand where he is coming from.

'Yesterday I asked, "HelpfulChap, do you think we should negotiate a deal to remain in the single market, like Norway, or leave it completely?"

He ignored the question the first time, so a while later I asked him directly again and he ignored it for a second time, so then I said, "Are you going to answer the question?" and he said, "What was the question again? I've forgotten." So I repeated it a third time and he still didn't answer.

Today, MaidOfStars has asked at least once, possibly three times, "HelpfulChap, which workers' rights do the RMT want to protect by leaving the EU?" and he is ignoring her.

He got very offended when people suggested that Brexit voters aren't well informed and haven't considered all the relevant issues, but when people ask him directly what he thinks about a particular issue, they get the silent treatment. But he is still here, still posting, and still telling us we are wrong.'

It's here again - asking questions. More and more questions.

Are you going to answer the question - what is the question.

It goes on .. the questioning ..

We should all be asking questions, inkanta. We only have one opportunity to vote on this so it's important to get it right.

I suspect some of you on here are young, early 20s, from the way you write and the content of your posts. You seem to be adhering to some ideology that has been inculcated into you - very common amongst college & uni grads - I see it everywhere. Rather than relying on your own observations, you take as gospel what you have been told in school and later on. You seem to think that any minor resistance or complaint by UK people is wrong, and there is nothing nuanced about your deliberations.

To lurked. I was referring to Pakistanis in Pakistan not wanting Afghanis in their midst and "encouraging" them to leave - one example. I am a Londoner and we see more nationalities than most places in England and it has worked well - but the ratio is now all wrong.

"I suspect some of you on here are young, early 20s, from the way you write and the content of your posts."

I couldn't care less how old someone is. I care about the substance of their argument.

'Do you actually have anything to contribute to the thread Inkanta? I'm trying to work out why you've bothered to post here...'

Another question??

That seems to be the theme ..

Ask yourselves this - in a quiet moment. Not now - straightaway.

Why do you think your questions are not being answered?

Honestly, ask yourselves that.

'Did you actually bother to read the thread, or have you just come on here to act like an idiot?'

Is this how you normally talk to posters?

Inkanta, I think it's because they don't know the answers.

Actually, let me rephrase that, because there are very few definite answers on either side of the debate.

I think it's because they haven't thought about the questions before and haven't formed their own opinion on the matter. Because usually they just speak to their friends who share their views that the EU is an evil dictatorship and none of these people ever actually ask them to justify their opinion, so they don't know what to do when someone puts them on the spot.

Want the evidence? Look at Spring and Daisy in the EU Referendum topic. They don't want to debate. They don't want to look at the evidence. They're just looking for people to confirm their own views.

Buttered Are you the person who works as a lawyer, is studying for an MA in European law and teaching contract law, or have I got you mixed up with op?

Inkanta I'm confused. People like HelpfulChap who favour Brexit and who post on this thread have presumably done some sort of research which leads them to that opinion. I don't think it unreasonable for the "Brexit-Curious" to ask questions of those people in order to learn more about the issues from the other "side".

Surely that is a vital way for the undecided to make up their mind, or even too change minds? Reading peoples opinions on MN, and reading the references used to form those opinions is an incredibly useful tool. We should all be questioning - this is after all a pretty major decision.

is blatantly ridiculous because a lot of the jobs that were taken were in factories and organisations that had trouble filling posts.

I find comments like this very hard to believe.

I did hear a factory owner on News Night once, ridiculing these sort of claims saying its usually a case of factory owners wanting CHEAP labour but they can't openly admit this can they, so its great to have this " we can't fill the roles with Brits, and they are lazy and don't work hard", excuse.

I disagree with this as well, the more diverse a country and certainly an area of a country, the less likely prejudices are

I think it was David Blunketts constituency where there were warnings things could kick off in a big way due to rising tensions between Pakistani community and Polish/Romanians arrived in the town.

But its moot anyway because it doesn't matter about colour or creed, when VOLUME is the no 1 problem, which is exactly whats occurred here in the UK. We know 1 in 10 births are to EU immigrants. Second only to France which is a vast country.
Pre Blair you may have heard nasty rumblings from Far Right Racists about
" forriners" but after Blairs decision to flood the country with a tsunami of peoples from very poor former communist countries, immigration became everyone's favorite topic, it simply was never ever an issue on this scale before. As Archbishop Wellby said - " its abhorrent to call peoples concerns about immigration racist" - or words to that effect.

Its impressive that some people still try and deny the huge numbers that have come here when even Labour admits they made huge mistakes Its simply not debatable whether or not a huge amount of people suddenly came into this country, they did.

Anyway in more positive news, The Dutch Result is a great boost for Brexit, and I have read JP Morgan is panicking about its staff wanting to vote Brexit, so they are employing some big gun speakers to try and brainwash them convince them otherwise .

It seems feeling for Brexit is strong in the city, and I have read its strong from the ethnic Minority votes too. Race equality activists are seeing lots of anger about the immigration from E Europe which they see as competition for jobs as well as a fear of the rise of the Far Right in Europe. Its been said " Main land Europe is far and away more racist than and viciously so" ...Runnymede Trust said " many black minority groups are ambivalent about the benefits of the EU" Others spoke of " Fortress Europe as a way of keeping out non white immigrants while allowing significant levels of European Immigration"

Then I also heard that Gransnet is doing a survey on the EU and also seems to be a strong OUT contingent over there....

Did anyone see Irving Welsh on QT last night? When pushed he also said he would vote for Brexit. ( strange man really, esp his long monologue on how systems shouldn't be set up to encourage tax evasion which he then took advantage of )

So are the Remain tribe choosing to remain because they're Tory?

CutTheWaffle, yes. I work as a commercial contracts lawyer and am studying for a masters in EU law part-time.

So are the Remain tribe choosing to remain because they're Tory?

Speaking for myself I am choosing to vote for remain because on balance, the evidence I have seen, persuades me that this is the better option for most of the UK population. I would surmise that many others on both sides of the argument have used the same process.

AFAIK the Tories are pretty split on the issue so I would guess that Tory voters are too..

They're just looking for people to confirm their own views

#TeamLurked