Re clueless friend and toddler

[Fleab1te]

Our friend, his girlfriend and their kid(toddler) came to visit recently. I've known him years and he's a lovely bloke but generally clueless about how he/his behaviour affects others. (Others feel this way about him too. We laugh fondly about his ridiculousness ). We've hosted him numerous times and always spoil him with nice meals etc. When we've visited him we're lucky if we get fed and had to go out and buy ourselves sandwiches once. (Just a bit of back story )

I spent ages cleaning, sorting bedding and 10 min after their arrival the place was a shit hole. Our house is the opposite of a toddler haven so I was prepared for some upheaval, but the more I think about it the more pissed off I get about his/their total lack of respect for us and our home. Here is a list of points of rage inducing behaviour:

They left half eaten food (provided by us) about the place(half a satsuma. ..then another one...)

Allowed him to wander around with sick all over his bib then left it on the side for me to wash.

Stomped into the house with muddy boots after a walk through the woods

Changed his nappy on the sofa /on landing (no changing mat) probably dropping traces of shit on to carpet.

Allowed him to bash furniture with his toys.

Allowed him to bang cupboards /drawers at 7 am.

He NEVER brings his own towel as apparently we are a hotel.

And to top it off after they had gone we discovered the most disgusting mess of shit smear in the toilet. He always does this but it's never been this bad and to be honest it tipped me over the edge. I know I might be being precious over the nappy thing, but it drives me nuts how some people seem to think that snot/shit/sick is somehow less disgusting when it's a baby's. We're not parents and don't ever intend to be, so just wondering if our non parentness is causing unreasonable levels of impatience and lack of understanding. Many thanks if you managed to get this far.

I am not sure inferior is the right word.

Opinions are all right and mighty fine until you try to put them in practice with actual, live children. Parenthood can be a little like a rock tumbler for the parents. Nothing knocks your edges off and brings you down to size like realising how little control you really have to make things go your way and how much more nuanced the relationship with your children is than how it may look on the surface when observing other people. If it teaches nothing else, it teaches humility. Or it should.

"Rather off-topic, sorry, but there are a lot of actual bio-parents whose notions, opinions and attitudes about parenting are inferior to those of non-parents".

No, not really.

The issues you speak about arise because of chronic poverty, stress, traumatised populations - and all of these people may well have had very high hopes for their parenting before they actually had children. "Opinions" and "attitudes" have very little to do with rearing children in reality - behaviour does. While behaviour can be informed by "opinions" and "attitudes", it's very easy to hold them and believe you would act on them but if you're not walking the walk, you don't know that you could. You just... don't. I think I know that I wouldn't kill someone if they hurt my child, and I think I know being raped or tortured wouldn't make me rape or torture someone else.. but how can I? There are certain things you can't know without experience.

"And I would never use the word 'breeding' - it's a little dehumanising isn't it?"

It's not uncommon for people in the gay community to refer to people with children as "breeders".

Hmm you've clearly never been around young kids much, have you OP?
See, I have two and, despite my best intentions, this all sounds pretty average to me- I know, it's awful. Just be thankful you can shoo the toddler out of the door and have some well earned - you can get your own back by enjoying a full nights sleep and a respectably late rise in the morning .
Ps it could have been soooooo much worse:

A hidden poo behind the curtain
Marker pen on the walls
Sticky mango smeared into your sofa
Random shit (poss actual shit) posted I to your DVD player.

A lucky escape I think!

Toddlers are unbearable at times, even your own. You said your friend has always been like this, you don't get a new personality on becoming a parent.

Go on the many toddler threads on MN, full of loving toddler parents at the end of their tether. If the toddler had been yours, I would have said this too shall pass. Since he is not, invite your friend back to stay when his youngest is 8.

But the fact is that based on actual outcomes, lots of parents have zero clue what they are doing and the rest of us pay the price.

I know that I would be a better parent, in terms of producing a happy, productive and contributing member of society, than millions of existing parents here in the US. There just is no question that I (and many other childfree like me) would be more competent than many of the women out there who actually are reproducing, but whose offspring end up damaged, academically incapable, criminal, physically unhealthy, unemployable, illiterate etc. - and we have legions of those here in my country, unfortunately.

So if I encountered one of those incompetent parents in a discussion and they tried to tell me "you don't know what you are talking about because you don't have kids," my response would be an eyeroll and a mental "you DO have kids and you still don't know what you are talking about. Look at your child."

It's just malarkey to assume that because someone has gone through the biological process, they know better.

And I think, like mathanxiety says, most parents know fine well there's no such thing as an expert or saint in parenting. Child-free parents can think they know better though, which you have sort of proven with your opening gambit on the topic.

"I know that I would be a better parent, in terms of producing a happy, productive and contributing member of society, than millions of existing parents here in the US. "

You may well have the attachment history, affluence and privilege to be able to say this. What you don't have is the right to assume that if you had the same learning history as these so-called "incompetent" parents that you would be a better parent than they. And how, pray tell, would you know that a parent was "incompetent" in a discussion? Are you suggesting that if you came across a discussion of a traumatised woman in a DV situation or a parent struggling to manage drug addiction in a teen you would "roll your eyes" because you know better than her about how you would manage such a situation, without ever having been in that situation? Really???

It's not uncommon for people in the gay community to refer to people with children as "breeders"

Possibly, but not being part of the gay community, I fail to see the relevance.

Anyway, I would never tell anyone how to bring up their child. It is possible to be involved in discussions on here that don't involve parenting advice!

"There just is no question that I (and many other childfree like me) would be more competent than many of the women out there who actually are reproducing, but whose offspring end up damaged, academically incapable, criminal, physically unhealthy, unemployable, illiterate etc. - and we have legions of those here in my country, unfortunately. "

And as for this... really, the mind boggles. Academically incapable? Damaged? So if you had a child who was raped and was very traumatised as a result, you would manage this okey dokey much better than anyone who has been in that situation? So if you had a child who was "physically unhealthy" because they were struck ill by cancer, this would roll like water off a duck's back for you? Illiterate? What about the many learning difficulties and traumas that can get in the way? And if you had had to do ALL of this while also being traumatised, abused, ill, disabled or poor there would be "just no question" you would do it better? Are you actually for real?

Whose talking about rape or cancer? I am talking about the assumption that when it comes to day-to-day childrearing, discipline and teaching kids decorum, many parents dismiss the opinions of the childfree with "you wouldn't know because you don't have kids."

I contend that we DO know and that in many cases, we know a lot better than the parents in question.

Dragging in hyperbole about extreme situations - where does that come from?

Lots of American parents are perfectly capable of doing a great job but they get sucked down by the morass of poverty and lack of opportunity and the stress that those environmental elements bring.

I also live in America and I have observed it's a peculiarly American trait to completely ignore the legacy of being second class citizens or not citizens at all in a country where multiple generations of your ancestors have lived, and to blithely dismiss the nuts and bolts of what it's like to live in a neighbourhood where police are on the take, where corrupt city government effectively disenfranchises you, where your local public schools are shitholes and you have absolutely no alternative but to send your children there. It is also a particularly American trait to be unaware that most recipients of food stamps are poor whites, living often in blighted former industrial states, often former single industry regions, with no hope at all of ever improving their lot. The common denominator is crap schools, and thanks to the segregation between rich and poor school districts the poor remain without opportunity. Nothing inspires good parenting like the thought that your children are actually going to get somewhere in life.

You are talking balloon juice about your potential to be a superior parent, LeaLeander, unless you are an educated, white, middle class person with a good income, living in a good school district. That sort of lifestyle is not available to millions of parents.

It comes from the absolute ridiculousness of your assertion that you know better than people who meet the criteria you have included as examples of "parenting incompetence" when all of these outcomes are heavily researched and more often than not the result of multiple severe stressors and vulnerabilities - underprivilege/interpersonal trauma/mental illness/disability.

1 in 4 women will have been raped, 1 in 6 are victims of DV or child sexual abuse. For many women who have experienced severe trauma, particularly if they find themselves in low income situations, their dreams of raising their children as they would in their hearts most wish to are very hard to realise.

The fact you "know" that you would raise a child who would not suffer in these ways does not make you a superior person than any of these women, and how WOULD you know what's involved in raising a child when you haven't? How could you possibly?

Perhaps you might explain how you know you would raise a child well without the experience of having to do it.

A child's physical ill health is frequently nothing to do with its parents, but you seem to imply that it's the result of bad parenting, Lea. Is this really what you think?

And SO MANY children have physical illness and learning disabilities whose parents did absolutely NOTHING to warrant the stress it brings into their lives other than, you know, decide to have kids and be willing to love them and work their asses off for them and you think you know better than any of them that you could raise them well? ODFOD. You are clueless.

Obesity, poor nutrition, lack of exercise, lack of activity that promotes motor skills, sicknesses caused by poor hygiene, etc. - yes, I do blame all of that on the parents. If they weren't ready to do the job and put in the time / attention to all of the above, they shouldn't have opted to produce offspring.

There is more to ill health than being unpredictably, randomly stricken with disease. And every person contemplating parenthood should ask herself or himself "what will i do if the child is special needs, disabled or gets a life-altering illness - can I cope emotionally, intellectually and financially?" Such things are not so rare that they shouldn't be part of the plan. Rolling the dice and expecting "society" to pick up the slack if the outcome is adverse is pretty grim.

There is not as much mystique about raising a child as some of you would believe true. Many childfree people are eminently more qualified to do so than the most fecund person on the planet.

Sorry, but to post as you have on this thread, on what is primarily a parenting site, is just goady fuckery, frankly.

LeaLeander - you're so full of your own self that your head might well soon burst. Secondly, in my head you sound a lot like Donald trump.

hey, people were insinuating that the OP was out of line because as a childfree woman she simply cannot imagine what it's like to wrangle a toddler and has no idea what is, and is not, a realistic expectation of decorum for a visiting family with a toddler.

I and others contend that we certainly need not have bio-reproduced in order to have a perfectly valid sense of what is and isn't realistic expectation of houseguests with toddlers. There is nothing "goady" (is that like "judgey"?) about that - or is it only okay for mothers to defend themselves, but not OK for childfree to make their case?

There are a lot of piss-poor parents on the planet and pretending that there are not is like an ostrich burying its head in the sand. And their incompetence ripples out and affects everyone, hence the village has a right to a strong opinion on the matter.

My very good friend once brought her toddler round when my youngest was about 5. I was horrified she changed a really shitty, smelly nappy on the lounge carpet. I boaked. Her dc ate biscuits and spread half spat out biscuits round the lounge. He was a sicky one and then deposited orange spots of sick all over the ground floor after his lunch, as well as all over his dm' s tshirt. I had forgotten what it was like. And you very quickly move on. I would have a break and invite them back in a few years op if it bothers you.

Yep, with toddlers, I only visited fellow current toddler parents. Everything breakable in their house will be either kaput already or out of the way and surfaces tend to be wipe-able or washable. They can hold conversations over 120 decibel screams and don't get stressed by a head-blue-body-stiff tantrum.

I no longer have toddlers and find it hard to sit through an afternoon with them, let alone a weekend like OP has.

LeaLeander:
*Obesity -- never heard of food deserts then..
*Lack of exercise -- never lived in a neighborhood where the streets are not safe to play in or where there are no houses with backyards, only apartment buildings...
*Lack of activity that promotes motor skills -- no bikes because they would be stolen, or toys apart from ones that make sounds when you press a button because they (1) are not available in your average ghetto or former coal mining county of West Virginia, and (2) cost an outrageous amount of money
*Sicknesses caused by poor hygiene -- I am wondering what these might be. Surely not the sort of tummy bug that even toddlers in leafy suburbs pass to each other in gorgeous libraries full of well-licked chubby board books and at Storytime when they play with the toys handed out by the charming Children's Librarians.. Surely not asthma, or autism, which know no socio economic borders.. What then could you be talking about...?

What you are suggesting is that people should think twice about reproducing if they or their great granny have asthma, or in the case of a country with institutionalised disadvantage that affects millions and has a terrible effect on outcomes for children, in case they are black.

I bet you wish eugenics was still all the rage.

*And every person contemplating parenthood should ask herself or himself "what will i do if the child is special needs, disabled or gets a life-altering illness - can I cope emotionally, intellectually and financially?" Such things are not so rare that they shouldn't be part of the plan.

"There is not as much mystique about raising a child as some of you would believe true. Many childfree people are eminently more qualified to do so than the most fecund person on the planet."*

.

Yup. Goady fuckery indeed. Not engaging with you any further. Delude yourself all you like, hun.

Late to this bit people letting their kids drop food mess and not making any effort to clean it up really fucks me off. I think it's really rude and I have a dirty messy five year old. Our house does have food all over it, mostly dropped by my five year old but it's OUR house. That doesn't mean it's ok to just let your child do the same while visiting. I always keep an eye on what my son is dropping at other people's houses, just like I would keep an eye on what litter they might drop when at the park.

But before I go, here's an interesting piece on how psychological inflexibility leads to a lack of understanding and compassion for the pain of others the sort that leads to prejudice against obesity, shunning of the poor, hatred of benefits etc - and you know what? It turns out it is also a pretty good psychological indicator of whether you can be a sensitive, responsive parent, too. So given what you've said here about "how the other half lives", you might want to think hard about your evidence about what a great parent you'd be. I'm not seeing a whole load to support your contention, here:

www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd/overwhelmed-why-trump-is-happening-now_b_9607090.html?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politics