Re clueless friend and toddler

[Fleab1te]

Our friend, his girlfriend and their kid(toddler) came to visit recently. I've known him years and he's a lovely bloke but generally clueless about how he/his behaviour affects others. (Others feel this way about him too. We laugh fondly about his ridiculousness ). We've hosted him numerous times and always spoil him with nice meals etc. When we've visited him we're lucky if we get fed and had to go out and buy ourselves sandwiches once. (Just a bit of back story )

I spent ages cleaning, sorting bedding and 10 min after their arrival the place was a shit hole. Our house is the opposite of a toddler haven so I was prepared for some upheaval, but the more I think about it the more pissed off I get about his/their total lack of respect for us and our home. Here is a list of points of rage inducing behaviour:

They left half eaten food (provided by us) about the place(half a satsuma. ..then another one...)

Allowed him to wander around with sick all over his bib then left it on the side for me to wash.

Stomped into the house with muddy boots after a walk through the woods

Changed his nappy on the sofa /on landing (no changing mat) probably dropping traces of shit on to carpet.

Allowed him to bash furniture with his toys.

Allowed him to bang cupboards /drawers at 7 am.

He NEVER brings his own towel as apparently we are a hotel.

And to top it off after they had gone we discovered the most disgusting mess of shit smear in the toilet. He always does this but it's never been this bad and to be honest it tipped me over the edge. I know I might be being precious over the nappy thing, but it drives me nuts how some people seem to think that snot/shit/sick is somehow less disgusting when it's a baby's. We're not parents and don't ever intend to be, so just wondering if our non parentness is causing unreasonable levels of impatience and lack of understanding. Many thanks if you managed to get this far.

I haven't seen anybody ask the question; If you're not a parent why are you on Mumsnet?

Honestly, Carrie, because huge chunks of the site have sod all to do with parenting, and no one frisks you for your reproductive status on your way in the door.

You compare talking about your work to talking about human beings as if the 2 were the same level of importance (unless perhaps you are in the life saving business) which I find truly offensive.

What's 'offensive' about it, Zing??? It would be deeply bizarre for someone to find someone else's child more of a source of fundamentally interesting conversation than your own job, surely?

Dry I must remember the 'frisking for reproductive status' comment - it's perfect!

Im really failing to see why the toddler/having kids or no kids is such a big issue here

OP describes her friend as being an inconsiderate clueless cock when he stayed in the past as a single man, not concerned how his behaviour affected others, inconsiderate, a bit of a joke, but she was willing to put up with it, laugh fondly and pamper him with lovely meals, overlook his deficiencies when she visited him etc instead of challenging him or reducing contact

and now hes an inconsiderate clueless cock with a toddler in tow, same inconsiderate behaviour equals even more mess and disruption but the behaviour is still his original behaviour, and the same remedy is still in the OPs hands

plus ca change.....

God I'm with you Fleab1te it's not about the toddler's behaviour it's about the toddler's parents' behaviour. It's quite disrespectful to treat your home like that. Guests should feel at home, and in your home, you don't leave half eaten fruit lying around and trail muddy boots through the house. I think in future you need to arrange to meet somewhere that isn't your lovely home.

Hope the clean up didn't take too long

Well Fleb1te, hats off to start with for bringing yr topic to the mums net forum when you are not a parent yourself. I was dreading reading the answers and as we can see there is indeed still a good deal of confusion here about a basic code of conduct when you are not at home and being a parent -or not. So thanks to lorelei9here for the no nonsense and thank you to the other musnetters answering with honesty, kindness and common sense. It isn't always the case and as much as I love that community, the one time I took my plea to the forum I got a bit of a bashing which left me licking my bruises!
So on my part, 2 things: remember, friendship works two ways like any other relationship and electricity. If they want to stay in good terms with you, yr friends should make an effort. Secondly please I beg you to revisit your hospitality code: get a good supply of guest towels! 😀

Well Fleb1te, hats off to start with for bringing yr topic to the mums net forum when you are not a parent yourself

I'm not a parent and I find the forum rather interesting, especially the discussions about current events, gardening, relationships, etc. The name Mumsnet is really a misnomer; blame it instead of the community members who enjoy non-parenting facets of the site.

And newsflash, non-parents can have perfectly valid opinions about chidlrearing practices.

And frankly, many of us who have children remain much the same as we were before - it's not like having a child commits you to some permanent journey across the River Styx into a Hades of nappy-changing and conversations about vaccinations, developmental stages and the merits of different schools!

(Come to think of it, I very seldom read the parent-specific bits of the forum...)

Peeved, it is a misnomer. No idea about statistics, but, knocking around the more general topics, it's clear many regular users don't have children, but are on here for the debate/mass silliness/discussion of their dogs/horses/longhaul holidays/kitchen paint/ trollhunting/sharing videos of people popping spots etc.

Or are men.

As is said in my post, I like the forum. But if you read some of the threads, more specifically child related, you will realise the is a fair number of comments stating the obvious "you don't have children so obviously this is how you react or what you think". Just a factual observation.
But no of course you don't have to always speak from experience, we can all have very valid opinions about life from where we stand.

I'm not a parent, but nor am I the tidiest person in the world, but I would have gotten annoyed too op. Yes, some allowances have to be made but when you're visiting someone else's home parents should keep a close eye on children to stop half eaten satsumas, likewise to tell him 'no' when banging toys against furniture. It's not their home, they are guests and the sick bib thing is disgusting! The muddy shoes thing is so disrespectful - if they're muddy then take them off at the front door before entering house. I insist people take shoes off before entering the house though (I do too) unless they're babies not yet walking so their shoes aren't dirty. I think maybe the slamming cupboard doors thing isn't entirely parents fault as they might not have been able to move fast enough/whatever, but surely at that time in morning they should be keeping a close eye on him anyway? And changing the nappy on the sofa ... just bleugh! I hope you gave it a good clean afterwards!

You make guests take their shoes off before entering the house? Like, on the doorstep or your path? Stand on one leg, til they can hop in and take the other shoe off?!

Peeved Not a safe space? Fuck me - I have read it all now!

I agree with you, Livia. eyeroll.

If "safe place" equals "echo chamber where no criticism or differing opinions from the village is allowed" I don't think a gigantic commercial forum frequented by thousands of diverse people is the go-to spot. No doubt there are private mommy blogs out there where only certain POV are welcome.

I'm another non parent who enjoys MN as a place to hang out online with a wide range of other adults. I would guess that about 50% of threads have nothing to do with parenting. I've learned a lot from being on here. Robust debate and other points of view are healthy and should be encouraged IMO

Wow I really thought/hoped this thread would have faded into obscurity by now as I was shitting myself about being outed.

I wrote a really long reply yesterday but lost it so decided to give up but checked back and I see it's still going.

Look I get it. I should provide towels. It's just honestly, in my circle it's not really a done thing. I've hardly ever been offered /asked and we always take our own.

To clarify I'm deffo not ditching friend but I might drop a few hints next time. Someone mentioned the rage inducing comment- that was meant to be lighthearted but I should've known better on aibu.

To answer a PP the shoes weren't in the hall they were in the lounge. We have a porch but they obviously don't remove shoes at theirs, but they were really muddy.

Erm trying to remember what else I said...oh yeah not suited to hosting?? I host now and then. Friends for gatherings, tea, stop overs. Can't say I've ever had issues and most of my friends have kids and most of them show consideration. So no not a toddler phobe just not keen on people showing a total lack of respect. But honestly I was all ready to laugh it off but the shit - it just finished me off. It wasn't a smear I assure you. It was practically half a BM clinging to the side of the loo.

Anyway I just wanted to say thanks for the supportive comments -and the not so supportive ones. I promise I won't moan about towels anymore.

"And newsflash, non-parents can have perfectly valid opinions about childrearing practices."

Not sure this is really true, to be honest. I say this as someone who very much believed this before I had kids (when I worked in a HCP role where my "expertise" related to the parenting of young children). I wouldn't say it out loud in real life but many of my colleagues without kids are pretty clueless when it comes to making research evidence round parenting user-friendly in the real world. They have opinions, sure - but they are like arseholes after all. There are certain things in life it's really hard to be a credible speaker about if you've never experienced them e.g. most relationships, bereavement, living with disability, understanding stigma etc.

Though I should say have ZERO issue with anyone posting on MN who doesn't have kids - there's so much on here, the "safe space" thing doesn't feel very necessary and there are plenty of spats between people here about parenting because of different experiences/world views/values/practices, being a parent isn't some sort of identify club. On the other hand, I think it's probably doesn't make a LOT of sense to be on a parenting forum if you have a policy of culling people for breeding, regardless of their personalities or your relationship to them. That feels a bit different.

Didactylos, I agree with you.
I am a parent of five and I see nothing precious about toddlers running amok. Their parents are not above reproach. I do not think there is any excuse for letting your child trash someone else's house.

I actually suspect the problem with the 'friend' here is a very passive aggressive personality, someone who feels everyone else owes him something. Unfortunately his toddler will suffer the consequences in the form of being ostracised, never being asked back to play after a first playdate, never having the opportunity to learn a better way to behave because they will be left in the care of their parents by default.

Just as well I don't have to justify my presence to anyone on here really

And I would never use the word 'breeding' - it's a little dehumanising isn't it?

Fusion, I agree with you too.

Rather off-topic, sorry, but there are a lot of actual bio-parents whose notions, opinions and attitudes about parenting are inferior to those of non-parents. Otherwise we wouldn't be producing so many losers of human beings. Just look at the threads on Mumsnet alone - the women who think it's OK to subject their kids to abusive fathers, the women who reproduce willy-nilly outside of committed, stable relationships, or even just those who are raising inconsiderate, ill-behaved and unhealthy children. Not everyone who bio-reproduces is an automatic saint or expert.

Here in the US there is an abysmal 35 percent high school dropout rate, an even worse rate of functional illiteracy and innumeracy, huge teen / indigent birth rate, most people still are monolingual, and as most know the US academic standards and performance compared to other countries is highly embarrassing. A nation of obese, lazy ignorati. Not to mention rates of child abuse and neglect, as I am sure you have in the UK as well. Despite trillions and trillions of taxpayer dollars dumped into programs to support "families" and education. So I simply don't buy that parents automatically know best.