To cringe at the phrase "England isn't England anymore"

[Sounddofsilence]

Said by a friend.

Another one sounded off about Easter Eggs now being called Chocolate Eggs so not to offend people because it was on the news!

Argh!

Of course, that tempted fate a little too much

Zero hours contracts existed well before 2003 immigration changes, I remember people complaining about it in the 1990s.

Lower wages have been caused by immigration its true, but the cost push inflation that would have ensued without it would have made things economically worse far earlier than 2008 as our international competitiveness would have dwindled much faster. Resulting in worse economic conditions now.

Many of the economic changes that have gone on in the last 30 years came home to roost in 2008, immigration has become the scape goat for it in many ways.

That letter is awful btw, its very easy to piece together not linked incidents and say OMG look at this. I might as well say:

" I look at the communities in Ascot and Windsor and see communities that do not intergrate, or perhaps call the victims of Levi Belfield, just last week I saw that a white British man had been accused of thousands of sex abuse crimes. Not a very successful society is it? "

I wasn't trying to say zero hour contracts where non existent before 2003, and as you say big business/governments needed an ever cheaper workforce/debt mountain to keep the plates spinning, but that's a separate discussion.

My point was that previously, people voicing their concerns where met with little englander /lazy British jibes by the same people who are now vocal against zero hour contracts and for living wage without any sense of the contradictory nature of holding both opinions.

Whilst in your opinion immigration hasn't been bad, it has for some people, that is the point, wether that is due to the sharp influx and infrastructure failing to get to grip with the situation, wage suppression or even just integration (which is now recognised across Europe) to blindly state that everyone else is just wrong is the kind of attitude that has helped the rise in the backlash we are seeing.

I agree the letter is bad, I don't agree with your response but I'm not getting into that.

My response was to show that you can knit together any shocking events and give them a cause, if you want to.

I don't think immigration has been a bad thing for the UK, my point was that it has become the lightning rod that gets blamed for everything from under funded and stretched services, to low wages to high benefits bills, housing shortages, all of which are effected by immigration yes, but it is not the entire route cause of these issues as it is being spelled out.

Despite this I think that immigration has been far more beneficial in terms of the jobs that have been taken up, the economic growth that has come out of it etc.

I do feel there is a lot of "little englander" about the arguments set out, sorry. Which is ironic as we live in a country that made much of its wealth by taking natural resources from other countries after we had supressed them, funny when the world follows the wealth isn't it.

I also think that people who argue England isn't England are often focussing on the nice chocolate box bits of England; not the nasty bits. The England of villages, cricket and warm beer in the local pub. Not the England of slums, outside loos, rickets, TB, industrial injuries and diseases like pneumoconiosis, football hooliganism, women having to battle for equal pay before legislation was brought in.

I suspect also that people are reacting to the loss of the local communities that their grandparents grew up in. People lack a sense of belonging anymore. I think that probably has a lot to do with the decline of heavy and traditional industries. When everyone knew someone worked in the local factory or down the mines then people felt connected and that has gone. I am originally from South Wales and I wonder what the news about TATA selling the steel works will do to the community there.

I bet the Anglo-Saxons said the same. And the Vikings. And the Romans. And the Normans.

Oh.

Wait.

There was me thinking that England was all into cultural changes being part of being England and being English throughout history...

Best ban all technology whilst you are at it too. We don't want any influence from outside from the internet thing or from American video nasties do we.

We should look to the Amish for ways to preserve our culture and way of life.

Damn this thing called progress.

'Bloody Beaker people. Coming over here...'

I was wondering when I wrote my previous post about my family history. Some of my mother's side of the family moved from Cornwall to South Wales in the late 1840's. Probably tin miners moving to get jobs in the SW coal and iron mines.
Were the South Wales Valleys, 170 years ago, full of locals going
"Bloody Cornish coming here and taking our jobs..."
Plus ca change!

I am pretty sure that enthusiasm for cricket is greater in areas with high immigrant populations.

Whereas I think the main threat to village cricket is the greater popularity of football. Certainly nobody is stopping anyone from playing cricket or drinking warm beer.

I am pretty sure that enthusiasm for cricket is greater in areas with high immigrant populations.

I doubt it's very high amongst Poles, Bulgarians, Latvians etc who are forming a significant part of our immigrant communities in some places.

True, but my point is that 'English' culture isn't changing because of the minority of immigrants, it's changing because of cultural changes that would happen with or without immigration.

If people want to play cricket, nobody is stopping them, and looking at village greens and beaches across England, apparently people who want to play cricket are still playing cricket.

Eastern Europeans are more likely to be interested in football, but that isn't really threatening the indigenous culture either.

Eastern Europeans are more likely to be interested in football, but that isn't really threatening the indigenous culture either.

It means we might get some better players eligible to play for England too.

Although Poles and others may be more likely to go to church at Easter, which does threaten the nature of our traditional indigenous secular Spring festival of chocolate.

I disagree that immigration isn't causing cultural shifts - some good, some bad - it's crazy to suggest some things would be happening anyway.

I'm not saying immigration causes no changes in culture, but if you look at how life has changed over the past 200 or so years - industrialisation (many towns with high immigrant populations were small farming villages before factories and mines were built), votes for women, modern medicine, car ownership, communications, the Internet etc. etc., changes caused by immigration in the last 20 years or so pale into insignificance.

Major difference between my children's childhood and my parent's childhood - no air raid shelters, no evacuation.

Come to think of it, my MIL was evacuated to the US during the war. Scrounging refugee and all that....