To wonder if people look down on single women?

[honeynotcherry]

I don't mean Mumsnet - don't mean lots of 'well I don't!' but in general is is the case?

I think I've been abandoned as a lost cause but in the circles i know not getting married or staying single is definitely seen for women as being something to be pitied.

Is this a correct view, do you think?

I was with someone from 16-29, then single apart from the odd brief fling for the following 7 years. I had a ball in that time, learned a lot about myself, and was mostly happy with the way things were. There were times when I felt lonely and missed having a partner, but I realised that there had been just as many lonely or sad or frustrating or boring times when I'd been in a relationship too, maybe more.

I did decide fairly quickly that if I was going to be with anyone again it would be because they added to my life and made it significantly better, otherwise what would be the point? I did feel looked down on during that time sometimes, or I felt certain married with kids friends wanting me to provide them with funny/disastrous date stories for their amusement. I felt a bit like the entertainment sometimes. I also hated the implication that I didn't know stress/tiredness/ 'what real love is' because I don't have children. I cared for my dying mother at home, I know all of those things thank you very much.

On the other hand, there was a certain amount of envy of the fact I had the freedom to come and go, peace, the tv to myself, lots of lovely holidays etc.

I'm now in a relationship again, I never really thought I would be and am not entirely sure how it happened! I actually pushed him away over and over, and still have moments of struggling with the idea that I'm supposed to spend so much time with another person! luckily he was a persistent little bugger, but also similar to me in his need for his own space so he understands.

Forgot to add, I was frequently accused of being 'too picky' When single, or told (mostly by my sister) to give people another chance who really really didn't deserve it. My eldest sister in particular didn't seem to understand 'he was actually really rude and selfish, he did something that was really quite unforgivable and to be honest I didn't really enjoy his company that much anyway'. She'd say ok, then keep asking me if I'd heard from that person, or if it was definitely over?

I'm a single parent. I have never, NEVER, once felt judged or looked down on, thank goodness. I live in a 'naice' area and know a lot of older, wealthy, old fashioned people and I know a lot of the opposite. Never from anyone have I felt even aware of it!

Abecedario "I did decide fairly quickly that if I was going to be with anyone again it would be because they added to my life and made it significantly better, otherwise what would be the point"

When I was dating, I was very firm on that. I was amazed how many people just thought "but...but ...ANY MAN will add to your life".

I don't know if people maybe just come out with this shit but know they are talking shit?

"I did decide fairly quickly that if I was going to be with anyone again it would be because they added to my life and made it significantly better, otherwise what would be the point"

Well precisely.

I think single men are judged too.

I've heard endless comments about 'there must be something wrong with him if he is still single.''

I think lots of people feel forced into coupledom as society pushes us that way.

I also think deep down a lot of people would like the dating aspect of singldom and not having to compromise etc but again a person who dates a lot is often looked down on.

I read an interesting article which offered that people are expected to settle down far too soon and should be testing out all the available partners first but again that is looked down upon.
If also put forward the idea that people feel ok with a divorced mother far more than with a single woman who has never married or had kids.

I think once you've been through a divorce/break up you are far more likely to be very particular about who you settle down with.

I don't look down on single women myself, but the older the woman, the more I think people pity/judge, particularly if they have never married. Over 30 I think there's pressure to settle down.

I think where it really cuts, though, is the assumption that a woman who is not in a long-term relationship isn't fully emotionally human or mature this or that if you are not in a LTR/married that there is something fundamentally flawed with you emotionally. It then follows that you would not be a good mother.

I remember being shocked reading here on MN when a poster was told to get a dog or a plant rather than having a baby on her own because if she couldn't manage to have a relationship then how could she possibly commit and be a good mother? implication being she would get sick of the chid and move on after a whilst!!!

I feel less pressure now I'm in my 40s to be in a relationship. In my 20s and 30s there was a lot of pressure to "settle down" and I did get quite depressed about it. I went through a phase of treating finding a life partner as my main mission in life and I dated a lot. It made me miserable. when I gave myself permission to actually enjoy being single and not need to be constantly looking for a partner my mental health improved greatly. I also made the decision that I didn't want to be constantly out drinking in bars being on "show".

Agree that being in a couple often "deskills" those in the relationship.

Not at all. I would think that they value themselves and haven't just settled for anyone!

emily "I've heard endless comments about 'there must be something wrong with him if he is still single"

yes, that and the eternal "commitphobe". I dunno why we must be phobic if we just don't think it's the right choice for us. Bizarre.

I'm a single mum - hitting 30 next year.

I've had a range of ridiculous comments thrown my way over the years:

"Must be hard for you without a man."

I quite like it, thanks.

"You just haven't met the one yet."

I'm not interested in meeting the one. And while we're on the subject, the one is a bullshit concept. Grow up.

"Are you gay?"

No.

"You must want to get married though!"

I really don't.

"But it would be nice if DD had a daddy though, wouldn't it?"

She does have a dad. He just happens to be an arsehole, and an absent one at that.

"But don't you want DD to have siblings?"

No. One child is plenty for me, thanks.

"Everyone wants to settle down eventually. You will too."

Because apparently, my life holds no meaning and no validity until I have a man in it. I've raised a child on my own, I have my own (absolutely beautiful, I will add) house, a steady income, wonderful family and friends and I take us on as many trips, outings and holidays as I can afford. My life is a very full one and I am very lucky. Where in any of that does it sound like I need a man?

"We didn't think you'd want to come, what with it just being all couples."

Or you don't want to watch me have a good time among couples as a single person because you don't understand my independence, my choices or my ability to wander through life not glued to a man, unlike you. You also don't want to sit and watch me enjoy myself and crack jokes next to your husband because you're jealous, insecure and worried I'm a threat to your relationship. I'm not, for the record. And they are all your issues. You should work on those, btw.

It's a mix of comments from both men and women, but definitely more women. I get the feeling they both pity and envy me. It's a really strange combination. Because I have a child, the childless pity element is removed, but the 'you're all alone' pity remains. But it goes hand in hand with a sense of envy - because I'm strong willed, I'm independent, because I have a nice life that I have carved for myself without needing anybody's help and most of all because I enjoy the freedoms of being unattached. And a lot of women I have come across just don't get how it is possible, because they have always been reliant on another person.

I should note - I don't want any of that taken to mean 'all women'. Not by any stretch! I mention everything above only in relation to the personal experiences I have had.

I think it's mostly envy from women because in many ways it is a much more pleasant and enjoyable life being single.

There are so many women who are in terrible relationships because they feel they have to be, either for the children, because they couldn't cope financially alone, they'd lose the house, they couldn't cope practically alone, they'd lose friends or family members, they couldn't cope with the stigma etc etc. I think they are very often jealous.

And men feel threatened by single women because we are an example to all women that women can live successfully without men and we don't need them.

There do seem to be a lot of people around, both sexes, who can't be alone and will put up with a lot of shit to make sure they aren't.

Aren't there just. There seems to be a vicious circle. They want to justify their own (somewhat shitty) life choice to have a partner at any cost so they make assumptions about you as a single person and assume you're unhappy. So we set up this general expectation that being in a couple is better than being single and people get pushed into compromising and end up in bad relationships. Which they then justify by convincing themselves that single people must be really unhappy.

As PP have said, if a relationship isn't adding a lot to my life, I don't feel the need to bother. I'd like a relationship so I can have regular sex with someone I trust but other than that, there's not much about a relationship that I miss.

I think it's time for the "got it all figured out staircase" diagram.
waitbutwhy.com/2014/02/pick-life-partner.html

If you are single and you'd like to be in a relationship then being in a happy couple would obviously be better, but being in an unhappy couple would be worse.

People who must be in a relationship at any cost think it looks like this, but it doesn't.

I have a horse who can jump staircases. Now that's my idea of a partner

I'd like a diagram of how your horse jumps staircases. Up or down? Or are there freestanding staircases in a field somewhere?

Some cross country fences are designed as horse-size steps Trills so you can canter up (or occasionally down) a series of steps. But in my head I picture him flying over the top of your staircase thing. He's ace. Honest as the day is long and totally reliable.

I'm single. This does seem to disconcert quite a few people. But to be honest, I'm far more annoyed by the way we're ripped off by companies, particularly in the sphere of travel/holidays, than by any individual reaction.

For instance, I once invented an imaginary twin sister with whom I would be holidaying, and then tragically had to pull out at the last minute, as it cost LESS to book the holiday as 2 people than as one, because singles are often not eligible for the best deals...

Good tip nocoolnames Must remember that one. Was there a cancellation fee for your 'sister'?

I've not come across a situation where booking for 2 is cheaper than one but that's probably because I don't travel often. That is a very silly company/hotel etc, wouldn't most people lie?

I was told that if I ever holidayed alone in Europe, I'd have a battle to get a double room and it's not the norm for singles to stay in a double room. No idea if this is true or not and quite surprised - when I go away with friends and sister, I never share a room and in the UK and US I've not had any issues at all.

I've been away alone a couple of times in Europe, once to Geneva and once to Lyon, both times stayed in a double room and got a good deal, but they were last minute deals. Generally I go to visit friends/family or travel with a friend - something I've continued to do since meeting current partner. In fact I set my stall out pretty early on that I will continue to want separate holidays from time to time! We're going away together for the first time this summer, I'm actually a bit nervous as im thinking you probably can't just do your own thing when you fancy with a partner like you can with a mate.

Abe " I'm actually a bit nervous as im thinking you probably can't just do your own thing when you fancy with a partner like you can with a mate."

well you're not joined at the hip. If your partner was on holiday with a friend, would they insist on being together all the time?

I was the only one who didn't go to a shopping outlet on a recently holiday. Just not my thing. It's your holiday too. Plus you may need down time - I had alone time every day. If you are sharing a room with your partner you may well need to wander off alone at times.

I don't know that people look down on single women, as its not a 'class' is it, but If a woman openly, loudly expresses a desire to be in a relationship but just can't find the right person then yes, I think that sucks, and I feel sad for her. I've known quite a few women who've been really open about wanting to meet someone, have kids etc and they're hitting mid-30s / early 40s and I will it for them because its crap being alone when you don't want to be.

But that is totally different to elective singleness. I am very happily married but I'm independent too and lived alone before that pleasing myself. Being single long term by choice is fairly fantastic I would think. There will be 'meh' moments but there are with everything.

Its different to being childfree. We tried to conceive for years and it was only when our two children arrived in a short space of each other than I suddenly wondered why I'd wanted it . Wouldn't change it but I do have frequent occasional envy of the freedom not having young kids provides and I almost admire...in fact I DO admire, those who choose to be childfree. It's a really pressured subject, as we found out, and those who actively say 'no' because they know its not for them are to be admired.

Not everyone wants the same lifestyle and it would be bloody boring if they did!

I'm in my 50's and invisible anyway