To be really upset with my brother re: ds?

[VicWillia]

I'm genuinely interested to see if people think I'm right to be angry or if it's my ds who is a little wotsit who needs better discipline.

Ds is 5. He can be pretty cheeky as I guess a lot of 5 yo boys are. He is quite naughty with saying sorry - if he upsets someone it usually takes quite a while on the naughty step before he'll apologize. He's pretty stubborn.

Tonight, we were visiting my dm and my brother was there too. Ds was being cheeky and told my brother he was "fatty". For some reason my brother took massive offence (he isn't fat so he can't have taken it personally) and grabbed ds hands, saying he wouldn't let go until ds said sorry. Ds was trying to squirm away and wouldn't apologize. My brother wouldn't let him go so ds started playfully biting at my brothers fingers to get him to let go (it was definitely playfully, ds is not the sort of child to hurt others) and my brother slapped him across the face.

Ds was obviously very upset and had a red mark on his face. AIBU to be completely livid and feeling like I never want to see my brother again? Or should I have stepped in and made my ds apologize?

And IMV the reason the child bit his uncle was not 'playful' , and not 'serious' it was a panic reaction, a way out as he felt trapped and frightened.

OP please don't discipline your child for this incident. As pps have said, he will connect the discussion you have with him and the 'punishment' he received from your brother and may normalise it. All he needs from you with regard to this incident is your reassurance that he is safe and loved and that an adult hitting him will not be tolerated and isn't a normal response.

Don't know if this helps. If it were my DS, I would be telling him what my brother did was very mean. That I am extremely cross with him. I would also be apologising to my child for not protecting him. I would be asking lots of questions and finding out how my child feels and vocalising his feelings about the biting/grabbing/hitting - asking if he felt sad, happy, frightened, cross. Your brother has acted like a child and a bully. How would you react if it were a child doing it to another child? I talk a lot to my DD about my family because they are so crap. I would also be talking about name calling brother and that it is not kind. How brother should say sorry and he won't - unfortunately not all grown ups behave nicely. My DD is 7 and understands a lot and tbh I think my DD is now more emotionally mature than either my mother or brother because she's has such a lot of crap to deal with re them. What I wouldn't be doing is telling her off. I would telling her some people get hurt by what we say and can get very angry. That its ok to be angry but we must never hurt anyone.

When I say we must never hurt anyone, I mean hit.

I have a stubborn child and I know from experience there is no way to 'make' her apologise! In that situation the only way to resolve the issue would be for me to quietly talk to her later about why name-calling is not okay.
As pp have said, your brother was incredibly wrong to restrain and then hit a child. I'd find it very hard to forgive that behaviour.

I have a stubborn child and I know from experience there is no way to 'make' her apologise! In that situation the only way to resolve the issue would be for me to quietly talk to her later about why name-calling is not okay.

How old is your child?

You do realise she will be expect to apologise in RL?

There are two issues here.

Your DB was a twat. Stay away from him, if you aren't reporting him.

The other is your sons behaviour. We all make mistakes but you should have stepped in the minute he start name calling.

Not because he deserved to be hit, but because that's what you do.

We all miss things, so don't worry about it too much.

I doesn't matter if he called him fatty ,or didn't want to apologise. He's 5 and your brother is 31 , he SHOULD NOT have slapped your DS !! I would be livid if anyone slapped my child , NO ONE has right to slap a child across their face .
What a bastrad!!!!!

OP, I'm a little concerned that you yourself were initially unsure whether you were BU or not about this. And that may be because you've experienced violence from your brother before yourself and (I assume) your mum minimised it with you too.

Can I just say you need to get clear on what is and isn't ok behaviour within the law and child safety etc etc.

I also think you need to ACT on it. Tell your mother and brother what the law is, and make sure that they both know you WILL report him if it ever happens again regardless of your DSs behaviour, and regardless of what the family thinks is ok.

It is critical your DS knows you are solidly behind him, so make sure he also knows that what happened to him was wrong without equivocation.

I speak from bitter experience.

My uncle assumed he could discipline me with 'smacks' growing up. In the 70s, this was how my intents occasionally disciplined me too. But I loathed my uncle for it. It festered until at the age of 20 we got into a massive fight and I told him to 'fuck off'. He assaulted me badly, and it affected my life. My parents went NC then, but it was too late for me. Even then I couldn't press charges. I've never seen him since in my life though.

I don't believe he would have done that if he knew categorically from day 1 that he had no right to 'discipline' me, and if he knew my parents would come down on him like a tonne of bricks.

It's not enough to just go NC. You need to draw a line and issue a warning.

As far as I am concerned, your DSs behaviour is an entirely separate issue and not related to this at all.

I feel for you both. I'd have reported him instantly, but only because I have hindsight. I hope my experience gives you the benefit of it.

OP, I think it's horrendous that some posters on here are justifying a 31 year old man slapping a 5 year old child's face because he called him 'fatty' and nipped or even bit his finger because he was being held tight

I would not let this slide and allow your DM and DB to minimise this. A serious talk with the adults need to take place about managing anger and boundaries. If you feel they still don't get it I would minimise contact with both tbh and not allow your DS to be left alone with either ever.

Otherwise yes, by all means, speak to your son about why name calling is not on and it hurts people's feelings, blah, blah, blah. But he is 5 and it is not unusual for children of that age to test boundaries and get it wrong. But he should feel safe enough to get it wrong with close family and not be confronted with physical violence.

Thank you all, a lot of food for thought.

Ds seems fine today, the mark is gone.

I told him that slapping is always wrong and that we won't be seeing uncle until he says sorry which I know won't happen. Tbh the thought of seeing him right now makes me feel a bit sick.

However I do agree I need to work on ds regarding rudeness and not apologising, perhaps I should discuss this with his teacher.

... by both I mean you and your DS. I think your brother is a complete and utter prick.

If someone bigger and stronger than me grabbed me and trapped me I'd bite them, too.
I also wouldn't allow my DC to be around someone who escalates a one worded minor "insult" from a 5 year old in to violence.

sea no has justified it.

It was wrong, totally and completely wrong. Whatever happened that's not ok.

But the name calling has to be dealt with. It can't be ignored.

It's two separate issues.

sea.

Name one poster who has justified it.

And I also think it's pathetic that some posters would obviously be offended at being called 'fatty' by a 5 year old as they believe he was outrageously rude and requiring further discipline
They seriously need to get a grip of themselves and grow a thicker, more adult skin.

Again, I feel it is appropriate for OP to tell her 5 year old that calling someone names is not nice and she doesn't want to hear it again or there will be consequences, i.e. whatever sanction she normally uses like time out, loss of a treat, whatever.

But for a 31 year old man to respond in this way to a child who is not his own is completely out of order.

Two issues here...your db slapping a child which is vvvv wrong and your ds being cheeky. Sounds like op both are being dealt with.

I have a 5 yo, if she called someone fatty I would just say "No, that's not polite" in a firm voice. I would apologise myself to the person in question. They're still learning what's funny/a bit cheeky and what's rude and offensive at this age. As others have said, no-one should be violent to your 5yo.

Sorry, meant to say it is not on for someone to respond in this way, i.e slapping a child who IS their own... what I meant is that DB should also not take it on himself to decide appropriate discipline of a child who isn't his own.

My dd at 5 wouldn't apologise, she would sit on the naughty step for about an hour shouting 'I'll never say sorry' and being utterly defiant. It was all pointless, she would have got a smack and still not said sorry.

She's now a lovely polite teenager, it was just a phase.

Your 'DB' is so out of order, it's pointless me saying anything, it's already been said.

Yes, ideally a five year old shouldn't call someone 'fatty'. But it's also true in many families that joking around and calling each other (semi-affectionate) names is quite common, I have a friend whose family is like this, but I've noticed that it is often the older ones teasing the younger ones- it sounds like your son may have thought this was an ok thing to do. He needed to know not to do it, and that he'd gone too far, but not in this ridiculous way.

I find some of the responses on here astonishing. The boy is FIVE!

That is a small boy who may be in reception or Y1, but is very young and has a lot to learn. So he called someone fatty. Big deal. A grown man should not take offence at a 5 year old's silly comment. We seem to expect more of children than we do of adults at times. As others have said, I can't imagine anyone would think it was acceptable for someone to lash out at an adult who'd mildly insulted them.

I think it's more important to make sure he doesn't ever bite anyone again as schools take it mega-seriously regardless of circumstances and perceived provocation.

As for the uncle, well words fail me. Firstly as I said above, it's pathetic to take offence at what a 5 year old says. And it's totally unacceptable to smack another person's child for any reason Would he have smacked an adult for calling him fatty? Well perhaps he would. But probably not, bullies are usually cowards. I'm also sorry that your mother was so unsupportive. I'd just minimise contact - there is no need or obligation to spend time with people just because they are family. And not when they can't cope with a 5 year old's silly comment without it escalating into violence.

Awful incident. I'm a bit boggled by the idea that you are scared of your own brother for a start. From that I'm already on your side even if your son was a bit cheeky.
There is no excuse for violence against a child. Ever.
I wouldn't have any more contact. I don't believe the blood is thicker than water thing at all. Your responsibility is to protect your son so that this cycle of violence is stopped.
Nasty man. Has he got children? Apologies if I missed the answer to that upthread

Agree there are two separate issues.

You should have been on it the second your son was rude to another adult. There shouldn't have even been an opportunity for someone else to have to pull him up on that on your behalf, pull your socks up woman!

Other issue is your db acted like a bullying abusive arsehole and you are right to distance your son from that behaviour.

ExtraHotLatte I believe TheSnowFairy [and others] were justifying the brothers behaviour by stating that OPs son was rude and if only OP had stepped in sooner with some discipline this whole sorry affair would never have happened.

That is justifying at least to some extent the violent behaviour of a 30 plus year old man against a 5 year old child and blaming the OP and her son for the violence which ensued.

No one said that SeaMagic so just stop that now. You're talking shite and you probably know it. Don't even think about talking for others, especially when you're talking mince.

How would you feel if your son told his teacher..?

I hope you don't allow him to be exposed to your (grown) brother's inability to control his temper ever again. This should be your 'line in the sand'. If you are afraid of your brother, how do you think your son feels?