to think this might be a child protection/safe guarding issue?

[thickgit]

There's a nursery close by to me. Today, they were playing outside. I very clearly saw male nursery worker laying on his back on the ground, leaning up a bit on his elbows. One girl was laying on her front, on him. Another girl was laying on him, more on his chest.
It looked inappropriate to me so I immediately called nursery and told manager to go outside and see. She was more interested in knowing who I was.

I called back ten minutes later to give her my number. She wanted my name. I wouldn't give it. She was very defensive about the scenario and just wanted to know if I would feel the same if it was a woman. I explained that I've worked in nurseries and would not let children lay on me like this. She said other workers were out there, so she had no issue with it.
What are your thoughts?

No you shouldn't report it to anyone! The manager was probably defensive because they thought it was ridiculous.
It's no wonder hardly any men are choosing this as a career ( and leaving it) when anything they do is seen as inappropriate!
You're lucky the manager was simply defensive.
I really hope she didn't say anything to the staff member.

"Clothed penis" - who even thinks like this?*

It is threads like this which put men off working with children and that's a terrible shame.

I'd also add, that in the most recent case of a male nursery nurse abusing children, it was not at all subtle and occurred due to complete failures of safeguarding, not boundary issues.

*Far too many people on here, that's who.

OP - you are getting a pasting on here because in cuckoo cloud mumsnet world, every man is a rapist, every relationship is abusive and every parent needs NC...but pedophiles don't exist.

All the operation gumtree stuff got poopoohed for YEARS here until it was found to be true.

Every one needs to someone to feel better than. On mumsnet, it's daily mail reading "chavs" who would "smash up a pediatrician's office" and love nigel farage. So mumsnet readers who are very proud about the fact they are the "right kind" of working class (they have Common Sense!) have this weird thing where they constantly insist that people are overreacting to child abuse claims.

Even though rates of child abuse are HIGHER than that of ADULT assault.

Anyway, please report to Ofsted. That's their job - to check reports. I personally think a caretaker encouraging the actions you've described without another adult caretaker there also supervising is extremely inappropriate.

People are insulting you and trying to silence you and frankly that's setting off alarms that if most people are like the people on this thread, people like you and me need to ALWAYS REPORT where we think there's a case because no one else will.

I work in a school and at lunchtime had several children ran up to me and smack me on the bum and run away whilst I was trying to deal with another incident. These things happen. Kids want to dress you up, arrest you and put you in jail etc and all of these things involve physical contact. It is part of supervising and supporting outdoor play.

Also, I'm so glad to live in this society where we have safeguarding, CRB and where men actually have to respond to the society they have fucking created.

If all your brothers, husbands and fathers are so fucking teary about all these low paid nursery jobs they are supposedly stopped from due to "suspicion", here's an idea: maybe they could try and end patriarchy? Maybe they could do something about rape culture, the wage gap, the self esteem gap and the rights to women's bodies?

Maybe they could march, protest, write letters and when we achieve it?

Well said, Apple.

Well I was a single mother and my dd's was quite absent from her life. Fortunately her nursery had a lovely man who played as men do with children, very physically. I felt it was very healthy and really appreciated him.

This has become a fucking Jodi Picoult novel.

ApplePaltrow, in this context your posts are ridiculous and scare mongering.

apple what on earth are you on about? It's not law to be on Mumsnet, if it's as bad as you say why are you on here? Your whole ramble post is a massive generalisation. Get a fucking grip.

Also Op, I'm sorry but this - Well, I would certainly never allow a penis to touch in a hug is crazy. Do you think so much of yourself that if a penis dared brush against you the man would be overtaken with an unstoppable desire??

Why do you have such an issue with men?

Agree with Catkind and The Stoic here, and Ridemesideways, and with the OP's gut feeling.

I would make a report to Ofsted. I am not in the UK but this sort of contact between preschool or daycare workers and children would be forbidden where I am. There is physical contact associated with engagement in play, and there is letting children lie on you, and never the twain shall meet, imo.

I agree with Apple's implication that apparently the worst crime you can commit in our society is to hurt men's feelings.

I used to work in a day nursery and remember playing 'row row row the boat' with about four or five 3yr olds sitting on my lap and legs. We used to take small groups of them swimming too, so they used to climb all over me in the pool as well.

I never felt this 'physical' contact was inappropriate. Neither did my managers, colleagues or the children's parents/caregivers. Day nurseries are a different environment from school, less formal and longer hours. When you spend 8hrs a day with children it would be impossible to not engage in any physical play/contact with them.

And as others have said...yes there are a very small percentage of people who work with children who may be abusers. However, young children are far more likely to be abused by their family members/friends than professionals. That doesn't mean we don't need safeguarding, of course we do, but we need it alongside a level headed approach to childcare regardless of whether the child carer has a penis or vagina.

My DH volunteers at sure start and the children are always laying all over him and climbing up him. He's the only male worker there and particularly the little boys (a few of whom don't have Dads) relish having a bloke to play with. The sure start staff love that he is so hands on and gets involved with the kids, so do the parents, they are always saying how much their kids love him.

I think this is actually a very sad post. It's the reason a lot of men are scared to get involved in childcare.

Report to Ofsted? To seek what resolution? For the worker not to allow children to climb on him anymore?

I don't think it would even meet the criteria to be followed up by the Local Authority Designated Officer (who has the lead for issues re: professionals & safeguarding and a duty to advise and liaise with Ofsted as necessary).

It's the reason a lot of men are scared to get involved in childcare.

I think they're more scared of the pay.

Fwiw, here is an example of a code of conduct that people working with 3 yos in my local RC archdiocesan schools must comply with:

'Practical Suggestions
These are some practical suggestions for identifying permissible and impermissible conduct.

Conduct that May Be Permissible
Appropriate affection between Church personnel and minors and vulnerable adults constitutes a positive part of Church life and ministry. Nonetheless, any touching can be misunderstood and must be considered with great discretion. Depending on the circumstances, the following forms of affection are customarily (but not always) regarded as appropriate.

• Verbal praise
• Handshakes
• “High-fives”
• Pats on the shoulder or back
• Hugs (brief)
• Holding hands while walking with small children
• Sitting beside small children
• Kneeling or bending down for hugs from small children
• Holding hands during prayer
• Pats on the head when culturally appropriate

Conduct that is Not Permissible
Some forms of physical affection have been used by adults to initiate inappropriate contact with minors. In order to maintain the safest possible environment for minors and vulnerable adults, the following are examples of affection that are NOT TO BE USED:

• Inappropriate or lengthy embraces
• Kisses on the mouth
• Holding minors over four years old on the lap
• Touching buttocks, chest, legs or genital areas
• Showing affection in isolated areas such as bedrooms, closets, staff- only areas or other private rooms
• Wrestling or tickling minors or vulnerable adults
• Piggyback rides
• Any type of massage given by minor to adult, or by adult to minor.
• Any form of unwanted affection
• Compliments that relate to physique or body development'

(apologies in advance for format issues if any)

Mathanxiety - what the OP says she saw in her first post isn't on that list so it isn't defined by that organisation as either appropriate or inappropriate. It might fit the rule about ages to sit on laps but we don't know their ages. There can't be a rule for everything can there? (As an aside, the age to sit on laps is odd to me, why 4yrs old...what if a 5yr old was hurt or scared and needed comfort 'sorry you're now 5, no lap time for you')

You'd assume it would be a judgement call and you would hope common sense would prevail and look at the context in which the activity was taking place eg outdoor play being a time for physical play where the child care worker is more likely to be climbed over by small children in their care.

Regardless of the policy you've highlighted, I still don't think what the OP saw, in isolation, would warrant Ofsted being informed.

Look at it from the nursery managers point of view.

You call and tell you have been watching the children outside and tell her one of her staff (who she knows) maybe acting inappropriately.

Of course she wants to know who is watching the children through a fence. Then you randomly call back to give her your number but not your name. I would be suspicious too.

And tbh she is probably starting to think that people being able to see the kids from the road may be a safe guarding issue or at least worried that people are standing and watching.

It most certainly would be defined by the organisation as inappropriate.

If there isn't a rule for everything then people take advantage, and others feel they don't have a leg to stand on when their gut tells them a complaint is needed.

Judgement calls, common sense -- all fail children miserably because predators take advantage of the vacuum and the general reluctance of people to comment when the culture goes unexamined and is not articulated, and the rules are not defined. The organisation I am familiar with published this code of conduct in 2007 in the wake of a massive child abuse scandal. Up to then conduct was all based on assumptions of goodwill, common sense, looking at the context, and other nonsense.

And it is exactly a case of assuring a 5 yo that you are there for them but never having one sit on your lap. This can be done and is done daily.

It's the reason a lot of men are scared to get involved in childcare.

I think they're more scared of the pay.

--

As a bloke threads like this make me want to tear my hair out. When my DSS and DD were little I used to take them into a wacky warehouse with ball pools, soft climbing areas etc and have a whale of a time not only with them but other kids joining in to. I was jumped on, climbed on, pelted with balls, buried in balls etc. None of the attendant staff or parents/guardians had any issue and were relaxed and happy their kids were having fun. I even received words from them it was great I was getting involved. Yet, apparently in 2016 this would be total,y inappropriate for no other reasoning than I have a penis.

I've been looking at going into teaching in the next five or so years, and was seriously considering primary level - seems I should realign my career expectations due to what's present between my legs.

The pay doesn't come into it either, that's a view portrayed by some feminists. Pay isn't everything. I'd happily give up money for career happiness.

OP will be insinuating next there shouldn't be male swimming instructors.

Mathanxiety - I'm sorry but the lap rule seems ridiculous to me. Is an abuser more likely to harm a 5yr old on their lap than a 3yr old? Are they specifically for childcare workers, as I'm surprised qualified professionals need to be told not to kiss the children on their mouths or touch their genitals/buttocks? (genuine question).

I disagree about judgement and common sense. There is a place for these alongside safeguarding legislation and guidance (The Children Act, Working Together etc). Investigating child abuse is full of grey areas, if there were a rule for everything it would be inherently easier to identify, investigate and prosecute. So whilst I wouldn't advocate common sense being used in isolation it does have its place, and is used by professionals working with children on a daily basis.

This is very saddening.

Our nursery staff can regularly be seen (by me, so in full view of staff and visitors) with a small child on their lap getting a bit of contact and affection - I'd be really disappointed to think that DS went all day without that, it cheers me when I see a child being properly and effectively comforted by someone when their parents aren't able to be there.

We hear the bad stories but i don't think they're as commonplace as some people seem to want us to think and we stand to lose alot more by being so suspicious about men working with children.

Stop the whole thread here. The church has spoken about what is and isn't appropriate. Clearly no further discussion is needed.

serious I agree. This pisses me off. Women complain that caring roles are seen as unimportant because there are mainly done by women. But when men try and do the job they are met with instant suspicion.

I definitely think more men need to become primary teachers. Secondary seems to have loads (after reading this thread I can see why). Our primary has about a third male teachers. Everyone I know is shocked as their school has one or two, if that.

O/p, as i said upthread. If you are genuinely concened for the safety of these children, you should report to your LA safeguarding team.

Trying to persuade mumsnet you are right won't help the children if you are.

Either have the courage of your convictions, or let it go.

And yy to the pp who said the nursery manager is now probably worried about the anonymous wierdo who is watching the kids and seeing sexual contact...