to think this might be a child protection/safe guarding issue?

[thickgit]

There's a nursery close by to me. Today, they were playing outside. I very clearly saw male nursery worker laying on his back on the ground, leaning up a bit on his elbows. One girl was laying on her front, on him. Another girl was laying on him, more on his chest.
It looked inappropriate to me so I immediately called nursery and told manager to go outside and see. She was more interested in knowing who I was.

I called back ten minutes later to give her my number. She wanted my name. I wouldn't give it. She was very defensive about the scenario and just wanted to know if I would feel the same if it was a woman. I explained that I've worked in nurseries and would not let children lay on me like this. She said other workers were out there, so she had no issue with it.
What are your thoughts?

Thickgit, I think its only because you've posted on aibu that you've had this reaction. There are members on here who I have seen on other threads being deliberately antagonistic, some of them I think would argue with themselves if there was no one else posting.

. But guess what, although I don't think this was what was happening, it is actually possible to abuse children in full view of everyone

Yes, I agree with this. Parents think nothing can happen at a nursery because there's plenty of staff keeping an eye on each other - that's a very naive way to think.

Most of us want nursery staff who will have children lying on them. We see that as about good care, not bad care. It is the nursery workers who don't do that and don't do cuddles who need to be sacked, not vice versa.

So you're going to potentially ruin this guys career over absolutely nothing?

I used to send the DDs in to wake the teenagers when they had rolled in lateand drunkand all the teenagers had penises (penii) and the DDs jumped all over the beds and there was tickling and all sorts.

How sweet :-)

I can well imagine somebody seeing me doing similar with the kids I childmind, they clamber all over me! And actually, the fact that he was laid back passively resting on his elbows suggests this was very much a case of kids clambering on him rather than him instigating unwanted physical closeness. It would signal to me that those kids feel very comfortable with him. There are numerous studies that have been done that have shown how important cuddles are for the development of young child. To me it would be awful if he'd felt compelled to push those children off him because of how it looked to an outsider.

I think no matter how small your concern you have a duty to report it. I occasionally have to fill in safeguarding forms at work. It's not something I enjoy, it doesn't feel great having to write down what a child might have told me in confidence, or hearing that things at home may not be rosy for them. But I've learned that regardless of other people's opinions you have to do what you think is right. If something 'beeps' on your radar, you listen to it, think it through and act practically. At work that means reporting things, for you that may mean reporting to another authority.

As a parent (and an adult who works with young children) I wouldn't assume a male having contact with any child would be inappropriate, just as I wouldn't assume that of a woman. I often find them trying to sit on my lap or hold my hand or give me a hug. You go with it and re-direct when necessary. But instincts play a part. Listen to yours.

Agree longdiling. There's no indication he was forcing the children, holding them in place, etc. Sounds like they'd clambered on him.

To clarify, I'm not advocating that OP needs to contact the designated officer, rather I've provided the info so they can make an informed choice about what can be done (rather than telling them to 'report to Ofsted' which is not actually the way to go about it).

I stand by my earlier assertions in this thread, that I don't think the behaviour/play was inappropriate or a safeguarding issue. I don't think there is anything else that should be done, particularly as nursery manager is aware and seems to have decided it is a non issue.

To be honest op I think you should take it further. This guy is not going to lose his job over this unless of course something with evidence gets uncovered. But what a safeguarding will highlight is that the staff need more training around appropriate contact and it will be made one of the actions to follow up. And thats ok.

Still laughing at 'contact with a clothes penis.'

Anyone else picturing a cock in a tuxedo??

*clothed penis

Holding hands, sitting (sensibly) on lap, giving hug are all non issues. Tickling, picking up, rough and tumble. . . All non issues. Penis. Non issue. Clothed penis. Non issue. Clambering. Non issue. Child lying on top of worker. . . Issue. Doesn't mean he was up to no good. He wasn't holding them down. He wasn't forcing them. I doubt even that he invited them or initiated it. But use a bit of common ffs. Sit up, or roll around, or SOMETHING. Don't just lay there.

It made me think of this shut up

thingsmydickdoes.tumblr.com

Actually, OP, I think this is about your hang ups. You don't body hug in case a penis touches you? That is very odd.

It honestly makes me so so sad that this would be deemed 'inappropriate contact'. Kids need and want physical closeness with their caregivers at this young age. They could be away from their parents for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week. How damaging must it potentially be to severely limit their access to physical affection for that length of time? Would it even eliminate child abuse anyway?! I doubt it.

You are seriously planning to report that you saw children climbing onto a nursery worker in full view of his colleagues and passing adults, that all he did was lie there, he didn't make any inappropriate contact, he didn't invite them or initiate it - his sole crime was that for the few moments you were watching him he wasn't moving? Really? Does it occur to you that he was tired or even injured and maybe, just for a minute or even less, didn't want to move?

I hope you're planning to give your name this time round?

Rider. I body hug. But I would instinctively do so in a way that would not have our genitalia touching. However, lol, if they happened to, I'd not assume he was abusing me. Is that okay? Does that work for you?
Oh, but if my gut instinct told me something was slightly not correct, I would take measures to not let it happen again. That simply means I'd MAKE SURE his bits didn't rub against mine.
A child in a nursery can't take these measures. I'll happily be blamed for over reacting if it means that the nursery, the manager, the worker, were to give their actions a little more thought

I'm a nursery manager and the designated safeguarding lead and I would probably have done what the manager in the op did
I don't see anything wrong with the behaviourof the staff member but I would probably warn my staff about prying eyes and being aware of being watched when outside
It does reinforce what I call my number one rule when working with children - Never lie down when in the or sense of even one child, or you will never be able to get back up as you will have a very child in the proximity lying on top of you

There was nothing wrong with what you did. Something didn't sit right with you. I agree with earlyday. We should never worry more about offending an adult than about concern for a child's welfare. Even if there turns out to be nothing wrong.

Like a pp, I also work with small children in a hands on setting. This would be considered inappropriate where I work.

We are always told it is never our call to make whether there is a serious problem. Most people in the past have always erred on the side of "there can't be anything to worry about/ l won't say anything". Thank goodness this attitude is changing, even if it does mean lots more paperwork, and concerns raised over what may seem small things or gut feelings about interactions, and also reports being made where it turns out there is nothing wrong.

In the worst case scenario, if there were turned out to be a valid concern over this person, it would be picked up faster. Because a second or third LOGGED concern would be a pattern. If we all kept quiet this doesn't happen. This has been the biggest lesson to be learnt from recent abuse cases.

From what I read the op wasn't spending vast amounts of time spying on the nursery. She spotted something that DIDN'T look like ordinary play where the children get physical, but a young child lying full length on someone chatting. If your gut tells you it doesn't seem right you would continue to watch to see if you're right, maybe expecting him to move and continue to play.

The man won't lose his job or career if this is a one off report. If he has had thorough safeguarding training (which he should have) he will fully understand why an outsider has reported what they saw.

I am surprised by the feeling on this thread. The assumption there cannot possibly be a problem. Yes the chance is very small. But we should never do nothing because of that.

I think it's better to be cautious than to be overly trusting like many of the people on this thread are.

The thing is, if you're inclined to be cautious, you will see any level of trust as being overly trusting. But the fact is that all the evidence demonstrates that the vast majority of people are entirely worthy of trust. If you cause a child to grow up trusting no-one and scared even of touching people, you will have produced a seriously damaged adult.

But what makes you think they will need better boundaries and more safeguarding training?

I'm fairly certain Ofsted and the LA safeguarding team will be fine with what you've described. They're not going to recommend more training just because you think they should.