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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

...to call my daughter beautiful?

146 replies

tangerino · 10/03/2016 22:42

This is something I really struggle with. I'm a feminist. I want my daughter to grow up valuing herself for who she is, not her looks (as I imagine all mothers do, regardless of whether they identify as feminists). I keep reading things which say it's wrong to refer to a girl's looks, what they're wearing etc as it reinforces cultural ideas that this is what's important about them.

And yet...I find it physically impossible not to call my daughter beautiful (when taking to her, I mean). Obviously it's not the only thing I say about her- I also talk to her about her abilities, how hard she's tried with something, kind things she's done, whatever. But I do find that I call her beautiful a huge amount of the time- I just can't help it because I find her overwhelmingly lovely a lot of the time (I don't mean this in a "my daughter's a stunna" way, but rather that I just find her physically lovely as part of loving her, if that makes any sense).

Do other people find this tricky? Do you think it's harmful to girls to say too much positive stuff about their appearance? Am I overthinking it?

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 14/03/2016 15:53

My DDs got a huge amount of their confidence from knowing how to do things, how to be organised, feeling competent, and from playing team sports that were well coached. I know it's not available in the UK (but it would be great if it was) but their first sport was T-ball, which taught them that you are not going to hit a home run every time you get up to bat.

They progressed to softball, which again taught the same lesson. DS played baseball. Every stage of those sports introduced a new physical/hand-eye coordination challenge for the DCs. For instance, the tee to hit the ball off for three years of T ball, various fielding positions, some of which were unlikely to ever see much action and some that required a lot of concentration. In the first year of softball a pitching machine was used, with actual live pitching for subsequent years. Careful presentation of incremental challenges along with encouragement and positive teaching allows children to develop confidence. Good coaching makes it possible for everyone to feel valued on a team.

I do not think self esteem comes from hearing compliments. I think it means having a realistic knowledge of your own self.

just because the patriarchy abuses beauty, should we reject beauty or the patriarchy's ideas about it?
No, we can definitely all believe ourselves to be beautiful, but what is 'beauty'?
DD1 was scouted twice by bona fide modelling agencies. She turned both down because modelling would have taken up too much time that she didn't have thanks to her school workload and university workload. DD1 looks like many of the Next Top Models before you put her in front of a camera with makeup on all bone structure, and red hair. Beauty is a matter of presentation and it is a practical thing too it can be created. You can present an air of je ne sais quoi but that has to come from within.

I think we actually buy the patriarchy's beauty ideas when we believe little girls need to be told they are beautiful.

Would we tell boys any of this? I know people are saying they tell their sons they are handsome, but we live in a world where female appearance is a commodity so I don't think we send boys the same message if we tell them that occasionally. Do we want boys to understand they are handsome at the expense of personal qualities they might bring to a relationship? Beauty in girls means 'desirable'. Telling girls they are beautiful means telling them they can get a boy, they can be part of the in-crowd. We are telling them they will conform to society's standards and be safe within the crowd. We are telling them those are good things.

MerryMarigold · 14/03/2016 17:04

You usually talk sense, Math. And your first post did, and some of this. But as I have said many times on this thread, never being told you are beautiful does have an impact on self esteem. I only know it from the negative ie. not being told you are beautiful, but I believe it is a dangerous path to walk for the sake of ideals.

sleepwhenidie · 14/03/2016 17:19

I think it is different to call a child you know well beautiful (providing you also regularly recognise plenty of their other positive qualities too of course). To me it refers to their looks and personality and builds their confidence. It is very different to commenting based solely on someone's appearance - eg if you have just met them. I hate it when people who don't know my dc's do it within their earshot because it does reinforce the idea that we are all judged on our appearance and that this is what is important.

I think mathanxiety has it spot on with her posts around 04:00 but habitually I don't think many of us manage to pull it off that way. I try and remind myself to comment positively on specific actions or behaviours - concentration, patience, kindness, choosing beautiful colours for a picture or having a great idea for a story for example. But I know often I automatically praise the end product or achievement and sometimes label my dc's Blush

sleepwhenidie · 14/03/2016 17:23

FWIW my parents never told me I was beautiful when I was young - my DM did when I was about 21 and I nearly fell of my chair in shock. I agree Merry I think my self confidence would have been much better had I heard 'you are beautiful' regularly from people whose opinion was important to me while I was growing up.

I also think as mothers it is hugely important that we speak positively about our own appearance in front of our DC's - too many of us verbalise our inner dialogue of criticism and it is so damaging for DC's own self esteem and body image.

Wheresmybippers · 14/03/2016 19:26

I'm the same, almost bursting with love and say "You are just so beautiful" but I genuinely never thought of it being about her looks, I just think she's beautiful inside and out.

squizita · 14/03/2016 19:39

Math ah buy you did/do take an interest in your DD'S self-defined beauty - their style etc. I was literally expected to crave higher things and make up and hair products banned (but only for me ... The clever one ...).
Now you ask my sister, her complex is she was never intellectual or logical enough.

mathanxiety · 15/03/2016 01:31

Merry, did you get many other opportunities to shine? Music? Sports? Drama? Dance? My DDs were able to soak up all sorts of positive messages abut their attributes from coaches and children's drama group directors and dance and music teachers. Good coaches/teachers find something good to say about everyone's performance.

Sleepwhenidie's comment really rang a bell -- I also think as mothers it is hugely important that we speak positively about our own appearance in front of our DC's - too many of us verbalise our inner dialogue of criticism and it is so damaging for DC's own self esteem and body image. My mum spent her best years wishing she could shift 'five to ten pounds' and frowning at herself in the mirror. Bulimia held her back in many important respects. When she told someone they looked good it always meant 'You're looking skinny'. It made me conscious of subtexts to compliments, and the function of compliments as regulators of appearance. She never said anything negative about other people's appearance, but to gain approval, slimness was very much desirable. When I say slim I mean quite thin really.

So as a mum I tried to show an example of a more balanced approach to my DCs -- keeping fit for the purpose of good health, putting my best foot forward and being happy about whatever that constituted, appearing to like what I saw in the mirror without saying anything, being more focused on getting out there and 'just doing it' if we were heading off to a party or wedding, etc. (Mum used to spend days working herself up about such events).

Squizitza -- Yes I do take an interest in whatever the DDs want to do to embellish themselves and also in their clothes shopping. We shop together sometimes, and share tips on makeup application or some great new product one or other has discovered. We are all very fair and finding concealer or foundation is a continuous quest for us all. (I also take an interest in their academic progress and in their extra curricular activities.) My aim was to have an all around approach and when it came to appearance, to share the fun when they were just embarking on the world of makeup. As they got older I was happy to see them well able to present themselves acceptably for interviews and to go to part time jobs.

cookiefiend · 15/03/2016 02:27

I wrestle with this issue too. I do call my DDs beautiful (if I had a son I would too). I do this as 1) I don't just mean it in a physical sense. I often use it when they have done something thoughtful or kind as I think beauty is not just an interal thing.
2) I have body images issues and I want them to know they are beautiful. I genuinely think they are, but in the long run I want them to understand that everyone is beautiful. I am fat and unattractive (and have been told so on many occasions) and I will never be a model but my DH and DGM tell me all the time I m beautiful. Because they find me beautiful. And that makes me feel beautiful. I think it is important for them to understand the difference between sociatal norms for being pretty and being beautiful and loved.

I don't use pretty to describe them and I tell them they are beautiful even when they look dishevelled. I also praise many things about them and when others tell them they are pretty I do add things like fearless or spririted or whatever to try to remove the focus from body image.

mathanxiety · 15/03/2016 03:54

Do you feel beautiful or do you feel loved, Cookiefiend, when they tell you you are beautiful?

I think 'you are beautiful' is being used in a way that expresses the sentiment 'I love you', and I wonder about that, if it is so.

Cornishclio · 15/03/2016 07:14

Yes you are overthinking this. My eldest daughter is a staunch feminist but I would never hesitate to call her beautiful and often have. It does not mean that is the only quality you recognise in her and you could voice that too. It is important for all of us to feel we are beautiful.

squizita · 15/03/2016 13:04

Math Yes, I know. I was acknowledging that (it wasn't a question: it was a statement of the difference between not using the phrase 'you're beautiful' and not acknowledging positive appearance).

I was actively told off for wanting to adorn. Bad mansplainy, impossibly perfect version of a little 1980s feminist! Back to the school books and dungarees! Confused A very different kettle of fish indeed!

MerryMarigold · 15/03/2016 15:04

Math, I excelled academically. I was fairly good at music, Got to Grade 8, but it was never a passion. Sports: no. I felt loved (mostly, some tricky teenage emotions, but never unloved). I never felt beautiful. I look back at pics of me and think: wow! Other people would comment but I could never take the compliment or believe them. Now, I don't take care of my appearance really. I struggle to believe I am beautiful, and struggle with that attitude of 'well if I'm not, then I may as well not bother trying, because hey, it's hardly important is it?'. But I know I am kidding myself in that regard. It is important to me to look attractive/ beautiful, the best I can look, but self esteem in the area of looks really holds me back.

MerryMarigold · 15/03/2016 15:07

I frequently felt ugly. No-one close to me (ie. my mother) helped me to feel beautiful or gave me tips or helped me - then it would be about looks. I remember stressing about going to a wedding once and she said, "Well no-one will be looking at you anyway." It was very much that kind of attitude.

crusoe16 · 15/03/2016 15:20

I tell mine they're beautiful and handsome every day too. It isn't the only compliment I give them. I reserve telling them I'm proud of them for kindness and academic (and other) achievements though. I wouldn't tell them I was proud of them for looking pretty.

My friend has a really vile daughter who is constantly telling anyone who'll listen that she's the best looking girl in her year / school. She's 8. If I caught any of mine saying anything of the sort I'd quit telling them they were beautiful!

mathanxiety · 16/03/2016 01:13

Maybe 'unheard' is a way to describe your experience, Merry?

oliviaclottedcream · 16/03/2016 07:56

I'm sure she'd grow up really thankful that her Mum never told her she's beautiful.

I can't believe threads like this !!

Frika · 16/03/2016 08:21

Math, am I right in thinking you brought up your children in the US, but are not yourself American? I lived the U.S. for a few years ages ago, long before I had a child, but I remember being struck by what seemed to me (Irish, grew up in 70s and 80s) a much more effusive culture of complimenting/praising children, and encouraging them in speaking up, voicing opinions, compared to the Irish equivalent? I remember my mother really struggling with visiting American relatives' children, as she has the classic rural Irishwoman of her generation preference for the quiet child who barely speaks above a whisper and politely refuses a biscuit three times before accepting when a parent gives the nod to accept.Grin

I suppose what I'm asking is whether your experience of praising children, whether for effort, achievement or beauty, is that it's heavily culture-dependent. My mother would respond to compliments from neighbours about her children's academic achievement by saying we were just lazy and always had our heads in a book.

MerryMarigold · 16/03/2016 10:13

Yes unheard in other areas (or Mum too overwhelmed to connect). But I think specifically in the area of appearance it wasn't unheard, because I didn't know I needed to hear it, or needed help. I wouldn't have known to express that, only now with hindsight. My dsis is the same as me and had very different relationship with my Mum, and is in extremely different to me in character. However we have the same attitude to beauty and personal appearance which is interesting I think. Must ask her about it.

mathanxiety · 16/03/2016 20:45

Yes I am Irish, and my DCs are American. There most definitely is a difference in approach. My experience of the Irish approach was only my mother's, and she was very much a person for whom surface level effects were important, part of a mindset affected by bulimia, I believe. As I said, she never criticised our appearance, but let it be known via her compliments and her remarks about the appearance of others, and also her comments about her own appearance and getting in a total heap before parties or weddings, etc that there was a preferred look and that it was acceptable to be in a constant battle against your own body.

I had some cousins whose mother was always recounting their academic achievements genuinely really bright kids who worked hard and did very well and when this aunt had left after her visits mum used to always tell us not to mind Auntie X, and give out about the fact that those kids ate breakfast cereal for dinner in the kitchen with the help and put themselves to bed, and all that mattered to her SIL about them was the fodder they provided for bragging. So she was capable of getting to the heart of things in many ways all the same. My sisters and I did well in school but she thought it was gauche to speak of matters like that to others.

It hit me when mum came over after DD1 was born how much of a focus on appearance she really had. I met her at the airport and she was thrilled to see I had lost a ton of weight already at three weeks post partum. It was the first thought that passed her lips. It brought back many incongruous compliments on my appearance I had received while growing up won the 200 yards at sports day and got a compliment for how my hair was looking, for instance and it made me think about the matter. Eventually I decided I didn't want my DCs exposed to that sort of focus.

I was also aware of the more effusive American way and rejected that too. There was far too much mindless praise imo and not enough discriminating feedback. In the early 90s when the 'WOW, great job!' response to almost every fart trend was in full swing, I came across a few critical articles on resilience and perseverance and developing a child's inner sense of motivation, and how they affect performance in school and progress through work, and I thought developing skills and a good attitude instead of focusing on attainment made sense. Time management, ability and willingness to push themselves to use the longer word, write the better sentence, edit work when done, check over maths, get enthusiastic and organised about creative projects, in general just taking pleasure in activities and being permitted their own assessment of it all seemed to me to be elements that would stand to them over time no matter what direction their lives would take.

I do agree that American children tend to be encouraged to speak up, voice opinions, and come across as more confident than Irish children of my generation and maybe later generations too. One thing I noticed about America was the lack of standing on ceremony, and far more playful banter across the generations, children and adults of all ages chatting away, adults keeping up with trends and the latest catchphrases. I find American language use and language change very interesting, along with general acceptance of pop culture change among all generations. I think the casual American interactional style contrasts with the more formal approach I grew up with. There are far fewer fuddy duddys in the US than in Ireland (perhaps the UK too). Middle class American life is a lot more egalitarian and less hierarchical across generations than life in Ireland was, ime. I have Russian friends who take it even further.

At the same time, there is a good deal of instruction as to proper behaviour for children in the US. American children tend on the whole to behave well in restaurants and cinemas and churches. When we visited Ireland once, DD1 said 'I love Ireland because kids are wild and nobody cares'. Smile

Russian friends of mine, as far as I could see really only started trying to influence children's behaviour about age 6-7 (which is when formal school starts in Russia) and they were far more forgiving of wayward behaviour and more interested in uniqueness and individuality than American friends were. Like Americans though, they always included children in trips and outings and family gatherings at home, with an expectation that they would hold their own, conversation-wise, and friends and family would all include children in the conversation. Children were very much expected to conduct themselves in a sociable manner one they got past 6 or 7, and to have proper conversations, to ask adults questions, to express opinions.

In schools, children are expected to manage self-care just as much as reading and writing, with parents staying outside at the door while children do all the taking off of coats, boots, mittens, etc and organising of those things. I recall parents clogging the corridor and cloakroom helping children in school in Ireland to take off and hang up their outerwear even at age 8. Elementary schools also feature no 'setting' which imo is a really negative element of British schools because children in the early school years are still forming their own idea of themselves, and being placed in a low set can have bad results in terms of self image.

mathanxiety · 16/03/2016 20:48

That is interesting, Merry.

I think another potential problem with telling children things about themselves (that they are beautiful, clever, etc) is that a parent might unconsciously fail to dish out compliments equally.

mathanxiety · 16/03/2016 20:53

Or only compliment one element of each child -- cleverness in one, good looks in another, etc.

Then there is a situation where for instance a very artistic parent ignores a leaning towards maths in a particular child but praises another child for her interest in art. I suspect parents can sometimes see what they want to see, and can encourage what they think flatters them or something that is inside their own comfort zone by complimenting surface level attributes.

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