To be furious with my oh?

[CauliflowerBalti]

He's a very clever man. A quality I really admire.

However.

Sometimes we will be having a conversation, or I will ask him a question, and I will know that he's talking bollocks. I'll say that I don't think that's right - or indeed, that I know it isn't right - and he will get very defensive: 'Trust me Cauliflower, I know what I'm talking about, I'm right on this.'

In those instances, there's no point in continuing the discussion when we are both putting forward opinion as fact without any means of verifying, so I inevitably just change the subject.

Yesterday he told me something that I knew was wrong, and that if he carried on believing would result in him breaking the law. I told him at the time he was wrong and he did his usual 'I KNOW this, I'm right thing' so I just shut up. I googled it when he got home though to check and told him - not to score points, but to avoid him breaking the law.

He went mental at me. I'm always doing this, always undermining him intellectually and doubting the things that he tells me. Why can't I just listen to him and accept that he knows?

Um. Because I'm not a good little woman who automatically believes everything that her man tells her in wide-eyed wonder. Because he's not God - he doesn't know everything about everything.

He says it is damaging to his self-esteem and that I am always doing it. I say I will check things if I think they are wrong and they matter - like inadvertently breaking the law - or if he's gone so OTT in his 'Just listen to me Cauliflower I know what I'm talking about I am right and you are wrong and I can't believe you are questioning me' schtick that it does become about childish point scoring and I will seek the evidence I need to wipe the smug expression off his face.

Yes. I know. That is childish. But he drives me fucking potty.

So. AIBU to be sitting here wondering why I'm with someone who has such a deep-seated desire to be right that he can't stand being questioned? Or is it my problem, because I need to be right too? (No. It isn't that I have to be right. I only get cross when he tells me I am WRONG and I know I am not.)

And ::gag:: at the idea of his ideas being a willy he flings around and sticks down your throat. Nasty mixed metaphors there

Well, yes, that's true, acatcalledjohn. That is willy waving. I mean that generally, he isn't the person at parties people are desperately trying to get away from. He's not that kind of intellectually arrogant.

He says it's the fact that I feel the need to fact check that upsets him. Not that he's wrong.

I can't see the difference in this, beyond he's trying to push the way he feels about being wrong onto me and make it my fault.

I have to say, this is one of the reasons that I am now heading towards divorce.

I was brought up in a family with some very clever people in it, all of whom had strong opinions on various subjects-but also had the common courtesy and open-mindedness to listen to another person without shooting them down. Even if they absolutely were right, they were able to put that across without arrogance, or in such a way that acknowledged the other's side of the debate.

DH, on the other hand, would do the same as your DH- just keep reiterating his 'rightness' in an ever-louder voice. He would always rather hang on to that than be happy, I think! When I got to the point of having to Google things just to back up my own knowledge I realised that I felt disrespected by him (something echoed in other areas).

He has got a bit better, with repeated arguments, but tbh the damage has already been done. The arguing about the arguing has been exhausting. It might be worth pointing that out to your DH, maybe?

Shodan - I'm sorry your marriage is heading south. That's shit.

I told him I found it disrespectful that I am not allowed to challenge him. I asked if all of his other partners before me have been less of an intellectual match/less forthright, and he said no. Of course I am allowed to challenge him.

So why are we having this argument?

Have you ever asked him why he does that?

I don't mean in the heat of an argument as obviously that would go down like a lead brick but when all is calm?

When my DP does odd things I often start the conversation along the lines of "Can I ask you a question about something? It's going to sound a bit like I'm criticising you for something but I'm definitely not...I'm genuinely wondering about it"

Anyway....he always says 'yes' and then we can talk about whatever it is in a calm way and because I'm not 'blaming' him he will often admit to whatever underlies it and we can agree a way forward...

Sounds as though he wants intellectual deference from you. That is probably why he sulks when he is wrong too-his bid to be the supreme arbiter of everything has been undermined again.

Because generally, in couples who get on and respect each other, being proved wrong leads to a bit of teasing and laughter, then both people move on. Or it becomes a standing joke that both partners delight in.

My DH says that in his family there was no debate for the pleasure of debating, or to learn from another point of view. Every discussion was a competition and each person had to win. Whoever won crowed about it. My family debate animatedly. It doesn't have to go anywhere and nobody keeps score. So I think that how one views discussion is important. He may ascribe very different motives to you than the ones you actually have.

Is he open to talking about it?

He says it's the fact that I feel the need to fact check that upsets him. Not that he's wrong. [...] Of course I'm allowed to challenge him.

How does he reconcile these statements? What's the point in challenging him without investigating more?

Him: Elephants have five legs, you know.
You: Do they? Are you sure?
Him: Certain.

Option A:
You: All right, if you say so.

Option B:
You: But it's a mammal. Mammals always have four limbs, don't they?

Him: Elephants are an exception.

You: All right, if you say so.

Option C:
You: But it's a mammal. Mammals have four limbs, don't they?

Him: Elephants are an exception.

You: Hey look, elephants.com reckon that long thing at the front is a trunk, part of the elephant's nose and lip, and not a leg at all. Who knew?

Him: You fucking love to undermine me, don't you?

_

Who'd want to be A? He probably wants you to be B. C is an intelligent woman.

He is essentially asking that you accept him as an embodied giver of truth, in a manner that demands you constantly acknowledge your inferiority to him. Which makes him very insecure and also more than a bit domineering. This isn't about being right, it's all about power. He needs you to be less intelligent than he is, because clearly he is that insecure. And - here's the bit that worries me - he's prepared to gaslight you, by telling you that black is white, in order to 'win'.

It sounds to me like he's the kind of person who is unhealthily invested in his own intelligence as part of his identity. Yet he's clearly not clever enough not to realise that real brilliance lies not in the ability to regurgitate facts on demand but in a much deeper type of skill (i.e. the ability to think in a deeply original way that is not about what is or isn't factually correct).

If he has spent his whole life being told he's clever and knowledgeable a lot of his self esteem will be bound up with that, so when you disagree ('attack his knowledge' in his eyes) it feels like an attack on him. It's not of course but that's how he's interpreting it.

Don't apologise. You've done nothing wrong. I would take a really firm line on this tbh and tell him he can shout, scream or dance about with rage - it doesn't matter because he was wrong and being wrong doesn't make you a bad person or stupid but being a wanker about being wrong does. Tell him you love him and you're not willing to let him break the law or make a fool of himself and it's better that he hears it from you, the person who loves him. Any more nonsense from him, tell him that you're not interested in bullshit or massaging his ego and he is being disrespectful to imply that you should!

Does he define himself by his intellect (or has been defined by his family by it e.g. the clever one, the one who always knows etc.). It may be that being right and knowing stuff is part of how he defines himself rather than something he does. So challenging his "rightness" is not an intellectual debate for him but rather its a challenge to his sense of self.

That said, you shouldn't have to tiptoe around his ego, when what he is saying is wrong.

I work in a profession where experience is very important and one of our standing jokes is the more you learn the more you realise you don't know. So you have lots of over confident junior staff speaking to more senior people who invariably go "yes, as far as it goes... but have you considered..." and blowing their carefully crafted idea out of the water.

Just as an aside - how do you know his reasoned opinions on countries you've never heard of are right - he's wrong on things you do know about so may be he's also wrong on some of that.

You have my sympathies Cauli as DH does a version of this.

I once had a blazing row with him over the recommended way to deal with a (child's) nosebleed. He was getting DS to tilt head back and it was all going into his throat and panicking him (DS). I kept saying, no, we should let him sit forward, bend over a bowl and pinch the top of his nose. This was on the basis of me having had First Aid training and working at the time for a healthcare company . DH just refused to listen to me and continued with it his way.
Afterwards, when DS was OK again I googled the NHS page and showed DH saying, "things have changed, this is now the recommended method". He refused to accept it! Basically implied that NHS/ St.Johns Ambulance were wrong and that his way was absolutely fine, it was how his mother had done it, hadn't killed him blah blah blah. I was so mad that he was willing to make DS more anxious than necessary for the sake of his pride.

I have never, ever heard him utter the words "I was wrong". He won't even properly acknowledge that I'm ever right - if forced, he says 'you're not wrong about that'.
I hate the way he tries to patronise me into seeing his side of an argument or believing what he thinks - he will say, more loudly, "I'm simply saying..."

The awful thing is that he is now becoming forgetful too, and will say something and then later forget, but then adamantly deny he ever said it, even if the three of us (me and the DCs) heard him say it in the first place.

Why can't they just put their hands up, say 'fair cop guv' and be done with it?

The man sounds as annoying as fuck. He needs to decide does he want to be right or in a happy marriage.

Every discussion was a competition and each person had to win.

This is quite interesting. DH is fiercely competitive, as is his family-none of them like to 'lose' in anything. DH carries this to the extent of not wanting to try anything new, if I'm competent/good at it myself-because he feels he won't be able to 'win'/be the best at it.

Is your OH competitive in other areas?

"how do you know his reasoned opinions on countries you've never heard of are right"

YY to this.

In my experience, the vast majority of middle class men seriously overestimate how clever they are. I have male friends who go around acting like they are God's gift to intellectual study just because they got a 2.i from a Russell Group uni. It's cringeworthy.

There is some evidence that this is overtly gendered. This recent study of students in a STEM subject found that many male students overestimated the achievement of their male peers, while significantly underestimating that of female classmates. The bias was so significant that these young men ranked average B-grade male students as superior to very good A*-grade female peers.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0148405

(This is all a fancy way of suggesting that I suspect that you overestimate him, and underestimate yourself too.)

Genuinely clever people possess curiosity - openness to learning new things. People with fixed views, defensive about what they know, resistant to new ideas and other perspectives, are not intellectuals, or genuinely very clever.

I love talking to really clever people, because they are so open, so curious, so willing to discover new things and listen to interesting views (albeit often quickly, though usually politely, dismissive of boring, prejudiced or ill-informed views - because they're impatient to explore the interesting stuff).

Someone who insists they have nothing to learn on a subject, that their view is the one and only correct view and no other perspective is relevant is not clever. They might be knowledgeable, they might have some strong mental skills. It is not the same thing.

Such a person lacks the curiosity, imagination, ability to look at things from other angles required to be a real scientist, a researcher, for example. They could be a highly skilled technician.

Your DH sounds the type to defend whatever came before plate-tectonics, or relativity, until blue in the face (or until death) just because he didn't think of them, or hear about them first - before some infuriatingly inferior woman could tell him.

Anyone who understands the EU debate well enough to have a view but not well enough to understand the range of tenable views is confusing knowledge with opinion. They lack analytical skills and political awareness.

What topics does he 'allow' you to be the expert upon? Does this tally with your and other people's estimation of your strengths?

My father is like this - can NEVER BE WRONG - and has cost himself a lot of money and property damage in the past through doing unsafe/illegal stuff and getting caught out, but still will not rectify the situation as that would require ADMITTING BRING WRONG. Infuriating, but he's an equal opportunities know-it-all, and is the same with everyone. I think it stems from being unable to achieve educationally through family circumstances and also coming from a harsh background where admitting a mistake carried severe consequences (it's very tied to his self-esteem).

Whereas my ex on the other hand saved it specifically for me - his girlfriend was always wrong and he as the boyfriend was NEVER WRONG. Down to factual stuff such as there being an excess baggage charge/ baggage charge on Ryanair flights to what currency was used in certain countries we were visiting etc. And then when I proved that I was factually correct he would twist it round that he had been saying the same thing as me all along and that I WAS WRONG by misunderstanding him, and he had been correct in the first place! Once we broke up I went back to being fairly equally respected as a sentient member of the human race. So, it was gas-lighting and game playing really. As you say your OH doesn't do this to others do you think there might be an element of this OP?

Oh and to expand on the above, a hallmark of really clever people, IME is their willingness to set out their ideas for scrutiny. They think they're good ideas but genuinely want to know if they can be challenged or improved upon. It's the idea that interests them - or the actions that could result from a good idea - not defence of their ego.

Of course such open, clever people don't usually have any difficulty with self-esteem.

To me, defensiveness and ego signal 'not as clever as they think they are and likely to be a PITA, avoid'.

Do you know what, I'm not allowed to be an expert on anything. Oh bollocks.

What I do for a living is a variation on what he would like to do, but doesn't. Therefore my job involves skills that he knows a lot about in theory but has never practically applied. Things like green screen. He will tell me what I know - because I do it every day - in a way that is intended to teach me something. That's seriously patronising. But I let it lie as there is obviously some deep insecurity he has. People - men - are often intimidated by what I do for a living. No idea why.

I have been told quite a few times I can be emasculating too. I just get things done.

Huh. See you wouldn't need to fact check if he would just accept YOU are right, would you?

Cauli - it's only men with a very inadequate cock sense of self who would feel emasculated by a competent woman.

It sounds more and more to me like you are awesome. But also, that you are being quite serious undermined by a mansplainer with more brass neck than an entire pot of Brasso would polish.

IME, the more a person knows about a subject - the "cleverer" they are in this OP - then the more open they are to understanding that very little is clear cut, and that there are opinions and 'takes' on all kinds of information. The more you study any subject, the more you begin to realise how much there is you still don't know - sometimes even that the world doesn't know yet.
Anyone being so stubborn / closed to someone else's opinion usually comes from a place of insecurity, or lack of confidence in their own knowledge. Someone who has a really sound grasp of their subject is always willing to be challenged as they are clearly able to defend or explain their point.

Obviously not that bright if fails to realize that mark of ability to think is to be receptive to different ideas. Also, if confidence in own views, should be able to coherently defend them without having tantrum.

So he even knows more than you about your profession?! How long have you been with him. I know I wouldn't put up with this!

"Why can't I just listen to him and accept that he knows?"
Because he demonstrably doesn't? And - NOBODY KNOWS EVERYTHING. It's impossible.

"I have been told quite a few times I can be emasculating too."
No, you are competent. But the real thrust of him saying that is to discourage you from being competent to save his poor ickle feelings. I would get so fucking angry at that.

"He will tell me what I know - because I do it every day - in a way that is intended to teach me something. That's seriously patronising."
The very definition of mansplaining, I believe. Patronising, arrogant, disrespectful.

OP, you are a saint. I'd have beaten him to death with an encyclopaedia by now, screaming 'it isn't X it's Y you arrogant arsewipe!'.

I think I would have to sit him down, at a time when he was not doing this schtick and therefore you should both be able to have a calm discussion, and explain to him how disrespected I felt, and that I expected better of him, and that if better was not forthcoming then my respect for him would be chipped away every time he did this, and does he want a wife who respects him so little that her love has turned to disdain and resentment? He needs to use his mighty intellect to work out the inevitable consequences of his arrogance/gaslighting/insecurity/disrespect/condescension.