To wonder, where will a Trans pupil sleep on my DS's Europe trip?

[VioletVaccine]

In DS's form, there is a M2F trans pupil, aged 14. For the purpose of this, I'll call her Jenny, who used to be Jack.
Jack now identifies as Jenny, and is accepted as the gender she identifies as.
I don't know (it's none of my business) whether she takes hormones or not, but she dresses, lives, and wants to be considered as a female.
The vast majority of people have been accepting and understanding of the difficulties faced.
Jenny uses the disabled or staff bathrooms, and has a separate area to change after (girls) PE.
However, when the school year travel to Europe this year, I want to make a polite enquiry as to the sleeping arrangements.
This is a 6 day trip, 6 days 5 nights.
Boys are generally in one area of the hotel during school overnight excursions, and girls in the other, with respective form tutors overseeing the pupils when lights go out.
Jenny, according to DS, will be sleeping with her female best friends.
However, despite how she feels, she still has a Penis.
Should she really be in a dorm with three other girls?
Whatever Jenny identifies as her gender, her sexuality is not necessarily geared towards the opposite sex. Maybe she could be a M2F lesbian, who is attracted to girls?

Would you want your 14 year old daughter to share a room with an anatomically correct male for a week? I wouldn't.

And similarly, should someone who believes they are female, be forced to share a dorm with 3 teenage boys she isn't friends with?

Im hoping for some thoughts on how you'd handle this, and also, how to actually broach it with DS's school without being labelled a transphobic woman, a bigot, or any of the other terms that are so commonly used when you question the logistics of a situation like this?

Thank you.

Your use of the words 'unnatural' and 'unpleasant' suggest to me much more about your attitude, by the way, than the OP's.

Like it or not, the law protects people who identify as transgender.
as it should, as long as that protection is not given at the cost of others losing theirs.

Well, that's fine then, OP. Leave it to the school and the families of the children concerned to sort out protection. If they're happy that their children are safe it really isn't your business.

If you want to know the school's policy, ask for a copy. If, as is extremely likely, that policy says they will deal with all such issues on a case by case basis rather than by imposing a blanket rule, then your concerns about future trips are answered.

Seeking clarification of a schools policy regarding issues, when a child is going on a trip, is what any responsible parent should do, surely?

Only if they are relevant to their child. For example, when my child was going on a school trip with a child with a colostomy, I didn't find it necessary to seek clarification of their policy on dealing with such issues.

Only if they are relevant to their child

For example, the safeguarding policy. Unless you think that children's sleeping arrangements comes under some other heading?

Would you be happy for another parent to ask for such details about your child?

I would expect the school to be completely upfront about all their safeguarding arrangements for a residential trip, and I would actively hope parents would ask further questions if the information provided by the school wasn't clear. So, yes, I would be happy.

For example, when my child was going on a school trip with a child with a colostomy, I didn't find it necessary to seek clarification of their policy on dealing with such issues.

Continuing with your analogy - if there had been publicised and prosecuted cases where people with colostomies had deliberately misused their prosthetic to harm others, would you be more inclined to seek assurances from the school that their procedures were robust?

Would you be concerned that procedures for protecting other DC's that were based on subjective judgement of each individuals motives and on the basis of trust could result in your DC, or others, being harmed in some way

A child with a colostomy sharing a room with my child would not involve redefining my child's identity.

(it's none of my business)
^ This is the only part of your post I agree with op. I'm not taking the bait about your goady thread getting into an argument about it but your thread is rude, ignorant and inappropriate.

Someone with a colostomy bag might need longer in the bathrooms. We had the comparison to a child with disabilities before as this is a good example : a child with a colostomy bag may take longer in the bathroom, other children including mine might be hindered by this so it would be reasonable for me to ask what provision the school is making (e.g. ensuring there are enough bathrooms) I absolutely would expect the school to ensure that this child's needs were met but it's not unreasonable to just check that this wasn't at the expense of my child.

Sometimes compromised have to be made to facilitate the kid who has different needs, I couldn't for instance demand that every child had their own private bathroom.

In the case of jenny it seems the compromise is too much. Jenny absolutely should be able to go on the trip but the other girls should be entitled to privacy ( single sex bathrooms, sleeping and changing ) it's only a small compromise for jenny to have her own room and not be quite so included but it's a big deal for the girls to lose their right to privacy (a basic human right in most cases, e.g. Hospital wards, toilets, etc)

Consent is irrelevant, if a group of children are happy to waive their right to privacy that doesn't mean the school should facilitate this. 1.there are safeguarding issues on both sides - pregnancy, accusations of inappropriate conduct more like to happen with opposite biological sexes ( I appreciate it could still happen if one girl was a lesbian much less likely to). 2. It puts undue pressure on people in future, it's hard for a grown woman to stand up and say actually I'm uncomfortable with this let alone a group of kids who will be judged by their classmates. I wouldn't want my dd to be in the position in future when she has to fight for her right to privacy from the opposite sex on a school trip when this I'm should be a given.

Very true Felicity - its all very well people like Alex Drummond striving to "widen the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman" but what is actually happening is that the bandwidth is being simulataneously shifted and narrowed - and many people who have considered themselves women by virtue of their sex are now questioning whether it is a word they feel applies to them.

Presumably the parents of the children Jenny Is sharing a room with will ask the school if they think there is a problem. Not really your business as it doesn't affect your child. Also agree with pp regarding other children who are gay, would you have a problem with them sharing same sex rooms?

A child with a colostomy sharing a room with my child would not involve redefining my child's identity.

And a trans child sharing a room with three friends who are happy with the situation does not involve redefining their identity.

It's not about sexuality it's about what sex you are

I have no issue sharing changing rooms with lesbians I have no idea who is and who isn't a lesbian by looking at them

I do have a problem sharing toilets and changing rooms with someone who has a penis I don't want to o doubt many young girls would want to and I do not think it is something that should have to so even think about

Gruntled I disagree. if a male is placed with females because he identifies as female then the definition of female has been changed to suit the male.
The reason that jenny is considered for placing with the girls is that he refers to himself as a girl. So changing the definition of a girl.

I would expect the school to be completely upfront about all their safeguarding arrangements for a residential trip

Even if there is no safety issue concerning your child and it would involve breaking another child's right to confidentiality?

It's not necessarily an issue of whether the other children should be asked to waive their right to privacy - for all OP knows arrangements have been made so that that is not an issue either. Rollergirl cites a right to privacy in hospital wards and public toilets, but it is no way unknown for those to be unisex.

Gruntled - I get what you're saying but I think it's unfair to put the decision on the girls, yet they might be friends and more than happy to share or they may deep down be uncomfortable and feel they can't bring this up due to peer pressure.

I as a grown woman have trouble with this, we have 2 m2f transfer at work. One who I am quite friendly with, another that I don't get good vibes from at all (may just be my own intuition here, some people I warm to and others I don't ) but I have so far avoided using the same bathrooms as I am too worried about how I will be portrayed if time bring this up officially.

In my mind we should be protecting the rights of our children (all of them, including jenny) and not make them have to stand up and fight for their rights themselves.

It would be nice if we could let jenny have the right to be included without trampling all over the rights of others to have privacy but in this case the rights of the girls should outweigh jenny's right to sleep in the same room as them.

Felicity, I think the question isn't as straightforward as saying that the only reason anyone is considering placing Jenny with girls is that she identifies as a girl. That is part of it, but there is also the fact that she has friends who are apparently happy to share with her and that the people who actually know all the circumstances don't view it as a risk.

You are entitled to see the school's policy wrt safeguarding procedures on school trips. You are not entitled to know that Martin and Mary will be sharing a dorm because Mary has bowel problems and Martin needs his frame and they will be sharing with Jenny and John.

Because they are not your DCs, the school is under no obligation to discuss their conditions with you and your child is not in a mixed sex dorm.

Non heteronormative children are more at risk of fetishisation and/or being exploited by adults for sexually political ends. The fact that a child is gay, bi or trans does not mean that all parents of children at their school are entitled to know everything about them. Information should only be given on a need to know basis. The parents of the girls sharing a dorm with Jenny need to know the sleeping arrangements. The OP doesn't need to know where Jenny is sleeping. It's none of her business and she has yet to provide a reason why she should given this information.

Rollergirl, people on residential trips and in boarding schools regularly have to share with people they're not particularly comfortable sharing with. I utterly hated sharing with the class mean girls. If you're going to take your argument to its logical conclusion, the only solution is single rooms for everyone concerned. Which is fine but I suspect no-one wants to pay for that.

Dione
Why are you incapable of seeing this as a more general discussion? Do you really think these are issues of no relevance to anyone other than those who identify as transgender themselves, or are friends or family members of those that do? Do you not see a wider social impact at all?

At 14 years old children are not trusted to always make decisions that are on their best interests, hence them still being known as children NOT adults.

Dione. Your belligerence is quite funny.

Gruntled - it's not unknown i agree and there will always be unisex facilities (neonatal, intensive care, etc) but these are for practical reasons and there are guidelines in place to try and end these practices where possible. But again it comes down to what's important, being alive is more important that having privacy. I don't know whether you agree but in my mind the girls right to privacy trumps jenny's right to be treated exactly the same as the girls. There might be small compromises that can be made, E. G. Calling jenny her but other times it would be absurd to put jenny's rights above the girls like in the situation above.

Gruntled - why would everyone need a single room? There's no human right that says schools should put you up in accommodation with only people you like. But there is an expectation that you will be in single sex accommodation.

To me this is an important right. It would also be nice if school would put people with people they liked but that is above and beyond what they are required to do.

Single sex accommodation in these sorts of situations is a basic expectation for me and it seems ridiculous to do away with it for something that is less important E. G. Helping jenny feel more like a girl.

Helping jenny feel more like a girl is a worthy endeavour but Imo is not as important that it happens in this specific way when it compromised the right to single sex accommodation

I am not seeing this as a more general discussion because the OP is talking about a specific situation. There are plenty of "general" trans threads on MN. This is not one of them.

Ah, thank you for clarifying Dione - I thought we could take discussions wherever the participants wanted to go; d'oh!

By all means, carry on accusing the OP of "unnatural" interest in children's sleeping arrangements, if it's giving you a kick. I'm pretty sure you've made your 'point', such as it is, though.