To wonder, where will a Trans pupil sleep on my DS's Europe trip?

[VioletVaccine]

In DS's form, there is a M2F trans pupil, aged 14. For the purpose of this, I'll call her Jenny, who used to be Jack.
Jack now identifies as Jenny, and is accepted as the gender she identifies as.
I don't know (it's none of my business) whether she takes hormones or not, but she dresses, lives, and wants to be considered as a female.
The vast majority of people have been accepting and understanding of the difficulties faced.
Jenny uses the disabled or staff bathrooms, and has a separate area to change after (girls) PE.
However, when the school year travel to Europe this year, I want to make a polite enquiry as to the sleeping arrangements.
This is a 6 day trip, 6 days 5 nights.
Boys are generally in one area of the hotel during school overnight excursions, and girls in the other, with respective form tutors overseeing the pupils when lights go out.
Jenny, according to DS, will be sleeping with her female best friends.
However, despite how she feels, she still has a Penis.
Should she really be in a dorm with three other girls?
Whatever Jenny identifies as her gender, her sexuality is not necessarily geared towards the opposite sex. Maybe she could be a M2F lesbian, who is attracted to girls?

Would you want your 14 year old daughter to share a room with an anatomically correct male for a week? I wouldn't.

And similarly, should someone who believes they are female, be forced to share a dorm with 3 teenage boys she isn't friends with?

Im hoping for some thoughts on how you'd handle this, and also, how to actually broach it with DS's school without being labelled a transphobic woman, a bigot, or any of the other terms that are so commonly used when you question the logistics of a situation like this?

Thank you.

Mangina, Shenis... Mango?! f we're discussing male names for female anatomy, i'd like to add Shitoris

PrettyBright... Is Anna Lee a play on the word 'Anally' by chance? Classy

The play on words has been suggested but someone who knows Anna thinks they're genuinely serious. Although Anna may be the pawn of some rather unpleasant
transactivists.
As for outcry, there's such terror of being seen to be transphobic that even the other candidate is talking about trans rights & how wonderful she thinks Anna would be at the job.

I really hope all this stuff is just a big fad that will pass over.

Any parent can use whatever information they have available to further their own DCs cause in any school. This school is not setting any sort of legal precedent and should not be treated as though it is Pretty.

dione I never mentioned 'legal' precedent, you did.

Having acted on school complaints panels for many years, I can assure you that precedent is considered and can be binding in other settings, too.

Once there are rights enshrined in law, as per Maria Miller's proposed self-declarative ruling, it will not be a fad that can be passed over. Once there is a precedent for a male-bodied child being allowed to sleep in the dormitory of female-bodied children on school trips, that will be a legal precedent for any other self-declaring transgender 'girl' to demand to do the same.

As said some way above, safeguarding by separating the biological sexes means there can be no vexatious claims either in the near or distant future from either party, the girls or 'Jenny'.

No Gertrude, this will not set a legal precedent for anyone to do anything. Pretty, of course precedent can be "considered", along with everything else such as consent.

I know Claire Derbyshire was mentioned by name before, not sure if anyone actually looked her up. As well as killing her father, she also has a conviction for breaking into a female friend's house and ejaculating in their underwear. Apparently using your penis to come over your friend's underwear is a crime committed by women now.

So, we accept that Jenny is hypothetically just a troubled teen, suffering with identity issues. What about the teenage Claires? Anyone fancy letting them share a room with your DD?

Once this precedent is set, you can't change it based on whether or not some trans people may have less than honourable intentions, it can't be one rule for some and another for others. Don't girls deserve some defence from those that are just perverts, rather than genuinely gender dysphoric?

dione Apologies, I'm not explaining myself very well.

If Jenny is permitted to share with biological girls, then, when the issue comes up in the future, if a school makes a different decision, and the parents of that child choose to challenge it, then the decision made about Jenny will influence the outcome of the future challenge - whether that is in an internal complaint hearing or legally in court.
The fact that Jenny's school made a decision in Jenny's favour will influence the outcome of future legal action should any take place as it can be used as evidence that it has been done - 'custom and practice' is a term also used.

The agreement of the girls who Jenny will be sharing with is irrelevant - their consent is not a factor as to whether the school is being discriminatory towards Jenny.

A legal precedent is a different thing entirely.

Just to give everyone the heads up, KatieT12 who was posting earlier on this thread has been outed and banned by MNHQ as a troll on another thread.

Thanks Silverbirch I just thought she was being deliberately awkward and argumentative, explains a lot!

Why is that not seen as a threat to Women's Rights?

I think (at least partially) because women, (having first hand experience of being paid up members of a discriminated against group) have empathy for others who are discriminated against, abused, and marginalised. That empathy is mis-directed into 'yes, you're a woman, you're safe here, welcome to the sisterhood'.

But, you know, hopefully the tide is turning.

And yes, Anna Lee/Anally. ugh.

Couldn't think of anything worse than being directed to a room saying "No penis" for changing/toiletting etc. (I realise it was a flippant comment, however.....) I don't want to be classified as not having a penis. I'd rather be classified as "having a vagina". That's been the whole point of needing feminism in the first place - that men have determined that women are an underclass because they don't have a penis. We aren't lesser people for not having a penis. Nor do I want one.

This is why I don't understand the wanting to be recognised legally as a woman. Women have been fighting for centuries to be considered equal to men (and we still aren't). Surely the point is to be recognised as equals to women AND men, and have rights accordingly? #genderutopia

Woah, what a discussion! I don't think I'll add my view, it'll probably get lost...

Trans person is pro a my just as worried and wanting to fit in, and not to a fanjo either, I'll bet

Yeah, I'm being far too simplistic. Sorry. Then, I dunno, presumably she'll have to go in with the boys

"She has a penis.
She does not want the penis!
She is unlikely to use her penis!"

Assumptions! You have no idea how someone else feels about their body. And safeguarding policy certainly shouldn't be made on the basis of such sweeping generalisations.

Trans people do not have a hive mind and all think the same. They are - like all people - complex and unique individuals.

What if she wants to try sex with her penis at least once before she loses it forever (if that's what she plans to do)? Pretty natural human curiosity don't you think?

Amazing how 'sharing with friends' suddenly becomes 'vulnerable teenage girls and their parents pressurised in agreeing blah blah' without the slightest piece of evidence that this is the case.

Amazing...

it is an unnatural and unpleasant interest in this child

Dione you haven't explained why it is "unnatural" and "unpleasant" to want to know whether all the children in a trip one's own child is going on will be safeguarded, and what the general safeguarding attitudes of the school are. I'd suggest that being interested in child safeguarding when your children are being looked after by adults you don't know very well, and sharing intimate space with lots of other hormonal teens, is the most natural and responsible thing in the world.

As for "unpleasant". Unpleasant to whom? Because if doing something is "unpleasant" to one person, and not doing something is "unpleasant" to another, who gets top trumps and wins?

If we are so keen on respecting identity and letting trans girls choose for themselves, whatever the needs of other children, and whatever we as parents think, anyone up for this 6-year-old trans girl having a sleepover with their kids?

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/transgender-father-stefonknee-wolscht-who-left-family-to-be-a-six-year-old-girl-uses-childs-play-to-a6775051.html

Archery, if any parent in DS's class made a specific enquirey about where he was sleeping on a school trip then yes I would think that they had an unnatural and unpleasant interest in my son. Would you be happy for another parent to ask for such details about your child?

I would expect those questions if my child had started to identify themselves as the opposite sex

It has nothing to do with being transphobic (though I will be accused of that as I will not call a man a woman) it's do do with wanting to know about the safeguarding firstly of my child and all children on the school trip

The Stephanie Davies-Arai article makes for very interesting reading. This stood out for me

‘Transgender’ is not one of those ‘other groups’ defined by distinct boundaries, as all other minority groups are. By definition, ‘transgender’ stakes claim to membership of already existing groups; the mantra ‘transwomen are women’ accordingly puts them into two protected categories; both ‘transgender’ and ‘women’.

In the blurring of boundaries, ‘women’ as a distinct group ceases to exist; we have to say ‘women-born women’ now to make the sex-based distinction clear, and we are losing the right to do even that: any sex-based comparisons are seen as ‘transphobic.’

Happy International Womens Day all

Archery, if any parent in DS's class made a specific enquirey about where he was sleeping on a school trip then yes I would think that they had an unnatural and unpleasant interest in my son. Would you be happy for another parent to ask for such details about your child?

My sons are going on a residential next week - they are 11. I would be more than happy for any parent to ask a) whether the children will be in single-sex dorms and b) whether there will be any exceptions made to that rule, for any reason.

Those are reasonable questions. And that is all the OP is asking.