To wonder, where will a Trans pupil sleep on my DS's Europe trip?

[VioletVaccine]

In DS's form, there is a M2F trans pupil, aged 14. For the purpose of this, I'll call her Jenny, who used to be Jack.
Jack now identifies as Jenny, and is accepted as the gender she identifies as.
I don't know (it's none of my business) whether she takes hormones or not, but she dresses, lives, and wants to be considered as a female.
The vast majority of people have been accepting and understanding of the difficulties faced.
Jenny uses the disabled or staff bathrooms, and has a separate area to change after (girls) PE.
However, when the school year travel to Europe this year, I want to make a polite enquiry as to the sleeping arrangements.
This is a 6 day trip, 6 days 5 nights.
Boys are generally in one area of the hotel during school overnight excursions, and girls in the other, with respective form tutors overseeing the pupils when lights go out.
Jenny, according to DS, will be sleeping with her female best friends.
However, despite how she feels, she still has a Penis.
Should she really be in a dorm with three other girls?
Whatever Jenny identifies as her gender, her sexuality is not necessarily geared towards the opposite sex. Maybe she could be a M2F lesbian, who is attracted to girls?

Would you want your 14 year old daughter to share a room with an anatomically correct male for a week? I wouldn't.

And similarly, should someone who believes they are female, be forced to share a dorm with 3 teenage boys she isn't friends with?

Im hoping for some thoughts on how you'd handle this, and also, how to actually broach it with DS's school without being labelled a transphobic woman, a bigot, or any of the other terms that are so commonly used when you question the logistics of a situation like this?

Thank you.

I'm not moaning at you, OP, but if you're worried about the policy of the school; not Jenny - why didn't you just make the OP about that? I think it would have caused less confusion

I'm interested in this as I think schools need to get their policies in order in this regards. Case by case will make it about the trans pupil and not all pupils. Level headed policies are required for the safety of all pupils.

I won't justify my concerns for the greater implications of a decision like this again. Nearly 800 posts later and I'm still being asked by Dione mainly to justify why I think allowing this may set a precedent which could cause real problems in subsequent instances.

It's like banging your head against a brick wall of suspected bigotry and ill intentions, when really all I wanted to do was discuss something I think is highly important, and worry that if it's allowed in this case, may directly affect the way sex segregation in our local school is handled.

I

Totally randomly, this thread reminded me of a friend of mine who's parents were quite strict about mixed sex sleepovers - any male friends had to sleep on the sitting room floor with her dad patrolling in the night and her female friends could share her bed upstairs.

She came out to her parents as bisexual when she left home, after having spent her teenage years from fifteen up happily shagging two or three different girlfriends under the family roof.

Same sex accomodation doesn't stop teenage sexual activity. I guess the pregnancy thing is an issue, but thankfully not your issue so you can let it go instead of stirring. I'm sure the teachers have thought this through and I also think that the last thing poor Jenny probably wants is a big public conversation at a pre trip meeting about her genitals. Poor girl.

Have you had a reply from the school yet?

Sparkling No, I haven't gone in to ask them in order to have had a reply yet.
I have to go into DDs school this week re SATS, and have an appointment at DS's school on the same day relating to his IEP and the out of school excursion (he has ASD so he has these quarterly anyway). The schools are close to each other feeder schools, I'm not identifying Jenny in case anyone suggests that again so I am just going to mention it as an aside, because I don't want to risk offending anyone by making a specific appointment just to discuss it.
I'm genuinely apprehensive about broaching the issue, although I know for my own peace of mind at least, it should be asked. I believe as a parent I do have the right to know whether the school allows for self-identification to be a factor in allocating sex segregated rooms.

When I have spoken to the school, I will know what the situation is. It shouldn't feel this difficult to ask whether they are allowing it, but it does.

Just email.

poor girl
No. Not a girl. Girls do not have willies. They just don't.
Poor "Jenny". Let us please be kind to Jenny. But there is no need to rinforce the pretence that jenny is a girl.

But there is no need to rinforce the pretence that jenny is a girl.

Ah! Foolish me. I took the bait and thought this was a genuine thread instead of another MN opportunity to slag off and misgender transwomen.

I'll leave you to it.

Definitely poor Jenny. I hope the school make a stand and do what they can to protect her from these attitudes.

What attitudes?
Ok. Let us do away with sex segregation in toilets and changing rooms and dorms.
Clearly there is no need.

Ah, exploitation of a child to forward the sexually political ends of an adult.

At least it wasn't fetishisation.

Who are you accusing of exploiting a child?

This thread has become rather interesting, made me think a bit more about the issue of allowing transwomen into women spaces. The aspect of precedence being set is worrying if transwomen includes people that aren't actually transitioning.

But I still don't see single-sex sleeping areas being such a big deal. All of the hospital wards I've stayed on (and its been quite a few) were mixed gender so clearly not considered a big deal over here (quite possibly because of the big emphasis on gender equality here)

Lady stick

I've heard it all now

I don't know whether you agree but in my mind the girls right to privacy trumps jenny's right to be treated exactly the same as the girls.

But that is not incompatible with sharing a room if the other girls are happy to share.

Gruntled - why would everyone need a single room? There's no human right that says schools should put you up in accommodation with only people you like. But there is an expectation that you will be in single sex accommodation.

That's not what I said, Rollergirl. I was responding to your earlier post which said "I think it's unfair to put the decision on the girls, yet they might be friends and more than happy to share or they may deep down be uncomfortable and feel they can't bring this up due to peer pressure": I was making the point that sometimes on these trips people have to share with other people that they're uncomfortable sharing with for a number of reasons and that the only solution to that would be single rooms, but that's not practicable. Those reasons could include the fact that they people they're sharing with are bullies, or indeed that they are lesbians.

If schools are prepared to regard Jenny sharing with other girls as equating to providing single sex accommodation, and the other girls and their parents are OK with that, it really isn't OP's business. If these decisions are expressly made on a case by case basis, they won't set any precedents.

Do the posters on this thread who think that Jenny should share with her female friends, think that the dorms on a school residential should be mixed in general?

If not, why is Jenny an exception?

Gruntled - I think it's likely that in this case or in future cases when sleeping arrangements for someone who is trans are being sorted then girls will feel obliged to be okay with it. They will feel akward saying they don't want to. And possibly made to feel like a bigot. Or the other children's parents (both of the trans and other kids)

I've explained how I as a grown woman feels like this in my own workplace, id expect a hormone ridden teenager to feel much more passionately about this and possibly change their minds a few times. But importantly I think they would be very susceptible to peer pressure for this.

How do you think the school should make sure this doesn't happen?

That doesn't read well. I meant that the girls could feel comfortable but the parent of any of the kids involved might not. At 14 (or any age that this situation might occur) it's important the parents also feel comfortable. That's why consent is needed for certain things.

This thread shows that it's not a clear cut decision and it's not just the very odd person who would be uncomfortable so I think it's unlikely in future that everyone is going to be comfortable in these situations.

I'm sure the teachers have thought this through

If the BBC and other multimillion £ media corporations are struggling with trans-related issues as they arise then I think your confidence in the school is misplaced.
Most teachers are looking at threads like these and thinking "thank goodness it's not me".

There is no guidance and support for Governing Bodies who should be considering and agreeing policies that take these issues into account, and HT and staff are split on their own opinions and POV.

Unless this school is an exception, they are making this up as they go along, and the OP is quite reasonably concerned about the impact it will have on ALL the DCs.

I haven't read the whole thread but I have massive mixed feelings.

I have gay and trans relative and a friend so my heart is telling me I would be greatly supportive.

My head tells me I wouldn't want teen dd to share a room overnight with someone with a penis at this age nor would I want to share a room with an adult with a penis but I think that's more my worry that (non transgender) males could manipulate the system to their own advantage to assault women in the future which is obviously not relevant in this case.

As a teen if it had been my friend it wouldn't have bothered me though and dd shared a room with her male friend last year age 12 so I'm a bit confused about how I feel!

I've just asked dd and she said she would expect a girl even with male parts to be allowed to share with girls because they considered themself to be a girl.

Light reading

www.walesartsreview.org/international-womens-day-reclaiming-women/

That was good posie

Sorry I misunderstood you OP.