To wonder, where will a Trans pupil sleep on my DS's Europe trip?

[VioletVaccine]

In DS's form, there is a M2F trans pupil, aged 14. For the purpose of this, I'll call her Jenny, who used to be Jack.
Jack now identifies as Jenny, and is accepted as the gender she identifies as.
I don't know (it's none of my business) whether she takes hormones or not, but she dresses, lives, and wants to be considered as a female.
The vast majority of people have been accepting and understanding of the difficulties faced.
Jenny uses the disabled or staff bathrooms, and has a separate area to change after (girls) PE.
However, when the school year travel to Europe this year, I want to make a polite enquiry as to the sleeping arrangements.
This is a 6 day trip, 6 days 5 nights.
Boys are generally in one area of the hotel during school overnight excursions, and girls in the other, with respective form tutors overseeing the pupils when lights go out.
Jenny, according to DS, will be sleeping with her female best friends.
However, despite how she feels, she still has a Penis.
Should she really be in a dorm with three other girls?
Whatever Jenny identifies as her gender, her sexuality is not necessarily geared towards the opposite sex. Maybe she could be a M2F lesbian, who is attracted to girls?

Would you want your 14 year old daughter to share a room with an anatomically correct male for a week? I wouldn't.

And similarly, should someone who believes they are female, be forced to share a dorm with 3 teenage boys she isn't friends with?

Im hoping for some thoughts on how you'd handle this, and also, how to actually broach it with DS's school without being labelled a transphobic woman, a bigot, or any of the other terms that are so commonly used when you question the logistics of a situation like this?

Thank you.

A girls dick.

Righto

Obviously alex is a man
But where does this leave those in turmoil such as "jenny"?

I just ran this scenario by 14yo DD (who likes being called CIS, cue my head in hands), but also feels fierce about transG rights.

She reckons as long as Jenny's friends are happy to roomshare, no issues. The consent about room sharing is always very important, anyway. The proscription on sex or sexual coercion etc., between pupils, applies to everyone, too.

DD would be a little more worried if a Jenny->Jack person insisted on sharing with boys. About protecting Jack in that case.

Felicity, you do get it. Lesbians do not have, nor are attracted to penises.

Heterosexual transwomen (many still with their penises) appropriate the term lesbian & call lesbians transphobic if we don't find them sexually attractive.

I can find examples - I'm certain Hermione can too. Look at @adajwells on Twitter for a start.

Maybe we should start a petition to change the signs separating toilets, changing rooms etc. Everywhere can be labelled penis owner to the left no penis to the right!

felicity you say "obviously Alex is a man". I don't know if Alex has a GRC (remember, no hormones or surgery required) but even if they don't, if Maria Miller has her way, in a couple of months Alex will absolutely legally be a woman. The words "I identity as a woman" will be all it takes.

Alex is a lesbian

Oh of course silly me it's so obvious

lunar my DH has just said the same thing; relabel segregated spaces as those for people with "penises" and those with "vulvas".

lunar my DH has just said the same thing; relabel segregated spaces as those for people with "penises" and those with "vulvas".

The thing that I find profoundly depressing is that men are not being forced to accommodate or share their spaces with transwomen or transmen. Surely the biological sex group should be the one that needs to adapt to a subgroup of their sex that wishes to express their gender in a different way. Why not create female gender areas as part of men's toilets, changing rooms and so on?

Why is that biological women and LGB people are being forced to accommodate transwomen within their spaces.

It seems to me not only that transwomen are trampling over women and LGB's rights, but cismen/heterosexual* are actively promoting this approach.

*apologies for the use of cis.

Spreading the word is good for a start. Loads of people still assume that transwomen have either had or are preparing for the surgery & are attracted to men. The more people who know the truth the better. If the current recommendations become law, any woman objecting to the presence of biological males who say they're female in women's changing rooms / showers / rape shelters etc will be "educated". Did you see the reference to the woman in the psychiatric ward whose delusion led her to be terrified of men - even her DH? When a 6'4, obviously male transwoman was admitted to her ward, the nurses made it very clear whose wellbeing came first (and it wasn't hers).

I can't remember if this piece by Stephanie has already been linked but it's very worth reading.

yes silver it suits men perfectly 1) not to have to make any changes 2) for women to no longer to have space away from them, be able to organise without them or be able to talk about our inequality and biology.

I challenge you to find a discussion of female biology on t'interweb (rape, menstrauation, birth) without someone saying "but what about trans women and men! You can't say periods are a women's issue - that's cissexist!"

SilverBirchWithout

"Why is that biological women and LGB people are being forced to accommodate transwomen within their spaces."

Because these are the places where trans people want to go?

"but cismen/heterosexual* are actively promoting this approach."

I'm not sure that there is any evidence to support this.

Obviously alex is a man
But where does this leave those in turmoil such as "jenny"?

In an even more lnerable position sadly, where liberty taking idiots people like Stefonknee and Alex Dummond are concerned.

Because they are the ones being afforded privileges and access that they have no right to, at the cost of other people. 52 year old man "Stefonknee", is aroused while acting as a 6 year old, while being penetrated by her 'adopted father'. They also have another child living in the same house. Stefonknee is a Trans rights advisor in Canada.
Alex Dummond, beard, penis and all, has PIV sex with his female partners, yet is a 'lesbian' advisor for Stonewall.

In the future, what is to stop a totally male pupil saying "i am female" for a month before a trip, being granted access to female only facilities and sleeping areas, and then 'switching back' after the break?

People like Dummond and Stefonknee are a bigger threat to wider acceptance and tolerance, than any bigot with a narrow view IMHO.

Because these are the places where trans people want to go?

And what if the females who feel comfortable in that area with other females, don't feel comfortable sharing it with someone who is still a man?
Do their feelings not matter?

OP, I'm not sure what your point actually is.

Jenny is going on a trip. Jenny is not sharing a dorm with your DS. None of Jenny's roomates or their parents have expressed any concerns to you. You acknowledge that the school do not have to speak to you about Jenny's sleeping arrangements. You are not concerned that Jenny will rape her best friends because they are sharing a dorm.

So what is the point of you going to the school?

Oh FFS. I've said why, and how I will address it, why it is an issue, more than once.
RTFuckingT Dione

OP I'm not having a dig, but do you believe in someone being transgender?

Dione.

Seeking clarification of a schools policy regarding en trende issues, when a child is going on a trip, is what any responsible parent should do, surely?

VioletVaccine

"And what if the females who feel comfortable in that area with other females, don't feel comfortable sharing it with someone who is still a man?
Do their feelings not matter?"

I didn't say that the feelings of females didn't matter, I was pointing out that maybe men don't get involved because it is the women only spaces that transpeople want to be in.

Going back to your original point of thread.
If Jenny's friends and the friend's parents have been asked and said that its OK then I see no problem, I don't speak for anyone else.

I can see major issues with rape crisis centres, swimming pool changing rooms, accommodation and counselling for abuse victims/survivors and trangender rapists going to female prisons and many more.

Do I have an answer that makes everyone happy? No I don't, but at no point do I fail to take in to account the feelings of women.

VioletVaccine

On a less emotive note, have you checked the school's website for their policy, it should be available there or on request.

(but I suspect it will say something about risk assessments and taking in the needs of all children)

I do wonder what would be said if it were lots of transboys considering girls can't play in sports teams with boys after a certain age.

On that note....

Gender or rather sex has been very important keeping women out of their spaces, and now all of a sudden they've managed to get in our spaces and we cannot say no for fear of being accused of bigotry. Either sex means something it it doesn't.
For a millennia men have said it matters.

I have read the thread OP. You say you are concerned that Jenny's dorm is mixed sex. Your DS is not in Jenny's dorm. Neither Jenny, nor Jenny's friends or their parents have expressed any concerns to you. Everyone involved knows that Jenny has a penis and identifies as a girl.

What is your point?

She has a penis.
She does not want the penis!
She is unlikely to use her penis!