To wonder, where will a Trans pupil sleep on my DS's Europe trip?

[VioletVaccine]

In DS's form, there is a M2F trans pupil, aged 14. For the purpose of this, I'll call her Jenny, who used to be Jack.
Jack now identifies as Jenny, and is accepted as the gender she identifies as.
I don't know (it's none of my business) whether she takes hormones or not, but she dresses, lives, and wants to be considered as a female.
The vast majority of people have been accepting and understanding of the difficulties faced.
Jenny uses the disabled or staff bathrooms, and has a separate area to change after (girls) PE.
However, when the school year travel to Europe this year, I want to make a polite enquiry as to the sleeping arrangements.
This is a 6 day trip, 6 days 5 nights.
Boys are generally in one area of the hotel during school overnight excursions, and girls in the other, with respective form tutors overseeing the pupils when lights go out.
Jenny, according to DS, will be sleeping with her female best friends.
However, despite how she feels, she still has a Penis.
Should she really be in a dorm with three other girls?
Whatever Jenny identifies as her gender, her sexuality is not necessarily geared towards the opposite sex. Maybe she could be a M2F lesbian, who is attracted to girls?

Would you want your 14 year old daughter to share a room with an anatomically correct male for a week? I wouldn't.

And similarly, should someone who believes they are female, be forced to share a dorm with 3 teenage boys she isn't friends with?

Im hoping for some thoughts on how you'd handle this, and also, how to actually broach it with DS's school without being labelled a transphobic woman, a bigot, or any of the other terms that are so commonly used when you question the logistics of a situation like this?

Thank you.

OP what on earth possessed you to care enough to make a MN post?

Lol. People start threads on how often they wash towels and bedding. There's an extremely popular series of 'boring' threads. There are threads about spots, shoes and mildew.

Whereas you, Katie sound like someone who is a little afraid of Saying The Wrong Thing. Because you don't quite get why it might be wrong.

"AIBU is for people to ask if they are being unreasonable, never saw anything about arguing, but okay "

You've been on MN for, what, 2 months? You'll learn

Procedure wrt school trips change. By the time your DDs go to school they may be very different. It could be that there will be no trans children in their year. It could be that your child is the trans in their year OP. So I am not buying your excuses for your unpleasant and IMO creepy interest in a child who has nothing to do with you.

You are not unreasonable for raising your concerns with the School.

You are unreasonable for posting this when you haven't even approached the School in the first instance - a waste of energy debating when it's all based on assumptions. I'm glad you've admitted poor judgement on that as this situation is not about you so I do feel for that parent if they were to stumble upon this thread.

Personally I'd have no issue with Jenny sharing with my daughter but would expect the School to contact me to request permission. If all parents of the other girls in the room gave consent then the school have acted responsibly.

As many have pointed out, 14 year olds will get up to mischief if they really want to.

"a waste of energy debating when it's all based on assumptions"

Yes, a good summary of most of MN. We love it

You all sound like the types of parents who would disown their kid if they said they were transgender.

Really Katie?!

Why?
Because I think that every single individual pupil in every single school deserves their safety to be of paramount concern?

I care not about who identifies as what and when, I do however care that precedent is set on "I'm cool with that" in one instance.

Policy & guidelines should be set in place to protect everyone.

I think you'd find that a school would look at individual cases, so don't worry yourself

Cote yes I get that, it makes for good discussion/entertainment generally but with respect you have taken that sentence out of context. I'm uncomfortable with how personal this is about someone else, it's not the OP's laundry to air publically iyswim?

Katie your posts are now just insulting and daft - my dd2 spent 4 years wearing nothing but boys clothes and refusing to do anything 'girly' I did nothing but support her - she is not trans gender and has now moved on to make up and dresses but still (like me) prefers jeans and plays football.

I would support my children whatever choices they made (unless it involved being vile right wing bigots)

No one has answered the very really point - not even you - why do Jenny's rights over rule everyone elses - Jenny is a girl, Jenny has a penis - maybe other girls or their parents do not wish to sleep with a biological male in their dorm - do they not have a right to that? Jenny can have her own room - Jenny goes on the trip, Jenny is 14 and probably more than capable of understanding their needs to be compromise

Why can't you?

Jenny will be in the same room as her friends? Friends who I assume has picked to be with her? Why can't you just leave Jenny and her friends to have a nice time?

Violet I think you've justified your concerns. Are you going to speak with the School?

I find this discussion interesting, women haven't even been able to make people address them as "Ms" and along come the trans lobby and we are suddenly having to ensure people's feelings aren't injured with pronouns.
Again we find women at the bottom of this pile.

Why is is such a terrible thing to consider the feelings of girls?

well it's a little thing called safeguarding - that adults generally grasp

Safeguarding Jenny most importantly

Putting somebody with a penis into a dorm full of people without a penis open them up to all sorts of allegations - a simple risk assessment would tell most people that Jenny needs to be protected

catchingbabies

But do we believe that a penis is the defining factor that makes someone male? Does your vagina make you feel more female? Gender is about so much more than that!

Penises and vaginas are useful indicators of chromosomal sex. A person with a penis is male, a vagina is female. Gender isn't the same as sex.

How about children born intersex having ambiguous or multiple genitalia? Do we define them on their genitals or accept its more than that?

Very very rare, and usually easy enough to determine with chromosomal testing. Doesn't remove the fact of sexual dimorphism.

If a man has his penis removed after an accident does he stop becoming male?

Of course not! The rest of his body is still a male body.

If we accept that genitals don't decide your gender than we accept that Jenny is female in which case there is no issue!

Jenny isn't and never will be female. Female and male are not genders they are sexes. Genitals do indicate sex. A fact that as a medical professional, midwife I'm guessing by your nn, you should bloody well know! When a baby with a penis comes out do you tell the parents it's a boy? Do you write male on the paperwork?

Jenny might feel like a girl inside (actually impossible to feel like something you can have no experience of but whatevs) but that categorically doesn't make them a girl.

That's one of my concerns too ghosty - the risk of false allegations is just as important.

Katie, do you know what precedent is?

Yes, I do. However, I think a lot of things would still be judged at that time.

FFS Katie Jenny's friends aren't mature enough to make that decision and to be fully aware of the implications. The adults around them, parents and teachers ARE mature enough.

Katie if Jenny was my DD I wouldn't want her in a room with people she could get pregnant!

No matter if she amd them thought there was no possibility that would happen, as an adult I:

1. Remember what I got up to at 14!

1. Know from life experience how quickly amd unexpectedly attraction can develop, particularly on holiday, away from daily life.

I would want to protect Jenny from this situation, as I certainly wouldn't want becoming a teen parent to add to any troubles she has. And I would respect the other parents nor wanting their DD's to be at risk of that situation either.

Probably easier for the school to cancel the trip, than to prevent everyone worrying about Jenny's shenis.

Peyia

I am going to think hard how to broach it and tread very carefully, yes. I know I am not entitled to information on another pupil, nor do I want it.
I think the only way to do this at school, will be to make an enquiry as to whether dorms are still segregated by sex, or are they now able to be segregated around a person's self-identification.

"Why can't you just leave Jenny and her friends to have a nice time?

When my parents left me and mates to have a nice time, we had sex, took drugs, got hammered! We hid this from them.

No way am I going to be so naive!

How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?

So you understand then that if this goes ahead because everyone involved in this particular situation are ok with it, there is precedent.

Thus, the next time it crops up with a different set of pupils and the girls aren't ok with it, the school may say 'separate room then'.
At this point, the new trans person could claim that they were being discriminated against because it was previously ok.

By allowing it with no clear policy in the first instance, the school will have essentially fucked it up for girls in the future who aren't 'ok with it'.