To wonder, where will a Trans pupil sleep on my DS's Europe trip?

[VioletVaccine]

In DS's form, there is a M2F trans pupil, aged 14. For the purpose of this, I'll call her Jenny, who used to be Jack.
Jack now identifies as Jenny, and is accepted as the gender she identifies as.
I don't know (it's none of my business) whether she takes hormones or not, but she dresses, lives, and wants to be considered as a female.
The vast majority of people have been accepting and understanding of the difficulties faced.
Jenny uses the disabled or staff bathrooms, and has a separate area to change after (girls) PE.
However, when the school year travel to Europe this year, I want to make a polite enquiry as to the sleeping arrangements.
This is a 6 day trip, 6 days 5 nights.
Boys are generally in one area of the hotel during school overnight excursions, and girls in the other, with respective form tutors overseeing the pupils when lights go out.
Jenny, according to DS, will be sleeping with her female best friends.
However, despite how she feels, she still has a Penis.
Should she really be in a dorm with three other girls?
Whatever Jenny identifies as her gender, her sexuality is not necessarily geared towards the opposite sex. Maybe she could be a M2F lesbian, who is attracted to girls?

Would you want your 14 year old daughter to share a room with an anatomically correct male for a week? I wouldn't.

And similarly, should someone who believes they are female, be forced to share a dorm with 3 teenage boys she isn't friends with?

Im hoping for some thoughts on how you'd handle this, and also, how to actually broach it with DS's school without being labelled a transphobic woman, a bigot, or any of the other terms that are so commonly used when you question the logistics of a situation like this?

Thank you.

Love - Yes it does mean that. And there are "trans women" who have penetrative sex with their penis and have even had children as a result. Just as there are "trans men" who have got pregnant and given birth.

Legally hormones or surgery are not necessary to transition.

But cleaty surely if someone lives as a man with their family (I assume have sex with their penis and behave according too the social rules asociated with the gender man), then they can;t just switch to feel and behave like a woman (ie live according to the standar associated with being of gender woman) outside the house.
Besides, if at home they behave like a man, what happens when said person wanmts to meet up with a new ppartner. Do they behave like a man/like a woman?

Can you not see that it's not ossible to live as per one gender in one situation and another in anpther situation?
Well not if you actually don't want to be someone who just want it all when it just suits them.

I agree with you Love. But that is not the legal situation.

Basically anyone who says they are a certain sex has to be treated as if they are, although it has to be reasonable. So separate accommodations are allowed.

Okay, I acknowledge it may have been better to pose the circumstances as a hypothetical question.
"On a foreign trip, which is sex segregated as they always are, which dorm should a teenage M2F, or F2M pupil sleep?"
It would have avoided the 'none of your business' and 'what if Jenny's parents see this' posts at the very least.
But I didn't, unfortunately. With hindsight it would have been better to have done that.

I'm not saying they cannot keep their penis or vagina... I'm really not because they can if they so wish, I just think it's so complicated and of course, be looking into first and have an assessment before they can just say they are the other gender... I'm not saying it's a mental illness or anything, but like any other condition would - people have to be seen to be diagnosed with bipolar/depression, etc. or a broken wrist, you know.

However, during childhood I don't believe a child should even be aware of transgender... Kids can do and wear and act how ever they want... I do think it's wrong for a parent to then assume they are transgender and send them off to a doctor. However, a teenager is a different story, I really think it is and I can't see any benefit to a teenager pretending they're a female, so they can jump into bed with the girls... I completely think that they feel like the opposite gender. I've worked with someone before who has said that they still love dresses and pink stuff and everything 'girly' but feels as if they are a boy and I don't think anyone who hasn't been there can say that it isn't real or it doesn't exist

Love it doesn't make sense, no. But this is what is being pushed by the women and equalities minister Maria Miller.

She wants the term transgender to apply to the 18yo with severe gender dysphoria as well as the part-time cross dresser.

She wants the magic password into women's spaces to be "I am a woman". No certificate required, as it's illegal to ask someone to show their GRC. No surgery, no hormones, not even a bit of lipstick. Just those 4 magic words.

Sounds mad doesn't it? That's why gender critical posters on here are so against it.

I have to say, the more I read around, the more I want a clear legislation surrounding the idea of trans people.

A person who is still has a penis and is using it to have sex, PIV too, to the point they are getting someone pg is NOT a trans. They are not a person who wants to live as a woman if they are still happy to fulfil what is the most basic male instinct of reproduction.
I would say the same thing about a FTM who is getting pg btw. Men don't have womb and dream about being pg.

And then you would want these people who exhibit sexual behaviour according to their sex and not their gender to be treated as per their gender and be allowed in women's showers etc??? Really there are some people thinking it's a good idea?

It also puts actual transgender people at risk of course. They are subject to discrimination and violence too, and self declaration makes women's spaces significantly less safe if anyone can walk in as and when they please, and any objectors are asked to leave.

Lots of x posts...

That's what I would call having your cake and eating it!

How can a woman who is acting as a minister for women not realise the issues behind that? It's not that difficult to se it!

No it is not "responsible" Archery, it is an unnatural and unpleasant interest in this child. I would consider it highly irresponsible if the school discussed my child's sleeping arrangements with a stranger who has nothing to do with them.

Love, so you definitely wouldnt include

• a sex offending murderer
• a rapist

Or

• someone who works selling sex-with-their-penis

(Google Claire darbyshire, davina ayrton and tara hudson)
(Apologies for derail)

Allowing your kids to go on a residential means the schools is responsible, it is up to the school to be transparent about any potential concerns parents may have. Where a transchild may sleep is definitely one of them.

Love

Welcome to peak trans this is brilliant, regarding Maria Miller's report:
mirandayardley.com/the-transgender-equality-report/

If you feel the recommendations Miller makes are a bad idea, please do write to your MP, she wants them to be law within 6 months.

and regarding "Men don't have womb and dream about being pg":

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/24/trans-women-could-get-pregnant-within-next-ten-years_n_8627006.html

and

everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/trans-women-reproductive-justice/

OP what on earth possessed you to care enough to make a MN post? Bizarre. What's even more bizarre is how the school have told you this info? Weird

Biological yes I agree it can be an issue for transpeople too.
tbh, Im struggling to see a transman going to using the men loos/urinals for example.
This FTM would be very much at risk too.

It's very much the old issue of
Here is a group of 50 people. they have been all arrested by the militia. The person at the head of the group can either send one person to the militia and the rest of the group will be released safe. Or refuse to hand over said person and know that the 49 other people will be molested etc... What should the head of the group do?
It's a very common philosophical dilemma at a level of a governement. One decision might en up been detrimental to a smaller group of people whilst being beneficial to the majority.
However, the answer is usually that it's the group that has the majority that shoud be 'preferred'.

No it is not "responsible" Archery, it is an unnatural and unpleasant interest in this child. I would consider it highly irresponsible if the school discussed my child's sleeping arrangements with a stranger who has nothing to do with them.

I also have two other, younger children. I am wondering how it will be handled because I am unsure if events like this are handled with a "One size fits all" approach, or on a case by case basis.
If they allow this to happen for this trip, does that set the precedent for future trips too? Neither DDs attend the school yet (too young), but where they are is the feeder school for DS's.
So while this doesn't directly affect DS right now, the decisions made for this trip may set the precedent for future instances. Including DDs in a couple of short years.

Why is it such a bad thing to want to know whether on a trips- which have been sex segregated for as long as they've been going on- there will be children of the opposite sex sharing a room. Jenny may identify as a girl, feel like a girl, and expect the same rights as a girl. However, her sex is still Male.

It's bad because it doesn't involve you or your son.

I think the op has explained her concerns quite clearly, Katie. I suggest you read the thread properly if you have missed those posts.

I have read the thread, but I seriously don't think they're points that justify it. It's so pathetic.

Teenagers have self control just like anyone else

Actually not necessarily always true. Studies have shown the areas of the brain responsible for rational decision making and impulse control are not as fully developed in teenagers as adults.

I disagree, as is evident in my posts.

It's no different to a thread of AIBU to wonder how the girl with bladder issues gets to the toilet on the school trip away, when it's so far everyone would actually say it's really irrelevant to the OP.

"Which parent would deny their child to change tho? I've come across many trans children/parents, due to my work and parents often say "I'd rather a transitioned son/daughter, than a dead son/daughter"

There is a link on this page with the story of a 4-year-old male child whose parents have already procured a changed birth certificate (to 'girl'). What is this then, in your learned opinion and vast expertise, if not parents deciding to trans their child?

Do you really think the child in question tried to commit suicide at the age of 3 and that the family's only option was to change his name & birth certificate and dress him up in pink?

It's not irrelevant, perhaps the OP thinks this transgirl will be put in a room with her son. Perhaps she is concerned for the welfare of other girls.

Are you honestly saying Katie that if it doesn't directly affect your child you don't care about anything?