To wonder, where will a Trans pupil sleep on my DS's Europe trip?

[VioletVaccine]

In DS's form, there is a M2F trans pupil, aged 14. For the purpose of this, I'll call her Jenny, who used to be Jack.
Jack now identifies as Jenny, and is accepted as the gender she identifies as.
I don't know (it's none of my business) whether she takes hormones or not, but she dresses, lives, and wants to be considered as a female.
The vast majority of people have been accepting and understanding of the difficulties faced.
Jenny uses the disabled or staff bathrooms, and has a separate area to change after (girls) PE.
However, when the school year travel to Europe this year, I want to make a polite enquiry as to the sleeping arrangements.
This is a 6 day trip, 6 days 5 nights.
Boys are generally in one area of the hotel during school overnight excursions, and girls in the other, with respective form tutors overseeing the pupils when lights go out.
Jenny, according to DS, will be sleeping with her female best friends.
However, despite how she feels, she still has a Penis.
Should she really be in a dorm with three other girls?
Whatever Jenny identifies as her gender, her sexuality is not necessarily geared towards the opposite sex. Maybe she could be a M2F lesbian, who is attracted to girls?

Would you want your 14 year old daughter to share a room with an anatomically correct male for a week? I wouldn't.

And similarly, should someone who believes they are female, be forced to share a dorm with 3 teenage boys she isn't friends with?

Im hoping for some thoughts on how you'd handle this, and also, how to actually broach it with DS's school without being labelled a transphobic woman, a bigot, or any of the other terms that are so commonly used when you question the logistics of a situation like this?

Thank you.

Just to clarify, I do think that she should be in a separate room, I do believe that it is up to the school to outline a specific policy and not set a precedent on this one off case, and I do think that the rights of the girls are just as important as Jenny's.

Up thread someone said about how we as grown up people are having our arses handed to us - how do we think a 14 yr old girl would feel able to speak up.
I agree, it is not for the young girls to have to speak up at all, it is up to the school to safeguard and enforce clear boundaries.

I'm amazed by how many people think that by putting boys and girls in separate rooms means they stay put and will absolutely 100% not be having sex.

If any of the teens on the trip really want to have sex with each other, they probably will, regardless of room allocation. I would imagine that the dorm situation probably deter most shenanigans from occurring in the actual room anyway.

As a parent/teacher I would be worried about Jenny, a vulnerable teen with inevitable psychological issues regarding her gender identity and place in the world (and statistically at high risk of suicide) being further ostracised, separated from her friends and left alone in a room a long way from home. That would, for me, outweigh any potential worries about what she might do with a penis in a room with her female friends.

Meanwhile, if Jenny, or OP's DS, or any other person on the trip really wants to have sex, they will almost certainly find a way, regardless of room allocation.

Nice safeguarding there MackerelOfFact !

Jenny is a boy, whatever she wishes to be does not change the fact that she is a boy and should not be in a girls' room

Meanwhile, if Jenny, or OP's DS, or any other person on the trip really wants to have sex, they will almost certainly find a way, regardless of room allocation.

Are you a teacher, mackerel? That's a very worrying assertion, if so.

There are posts from teachers upthread which describe the 'policing' of room allocations on residential trips, including staff sitting on hotel landings to prevent middle of the night assignations.
While it is quite possible for teens to take advantage of the freedoms given to them by their parents, my understanding and expectation is that when on a school trip, the level of supervision is much higher.

The trans activists who want to drop 'trans' and be only women are a very small minority and they're entirely in the wrong.

If they as individuals don't want to deal with their mental health issues, their penises, their physical health as male bodied individuals then they don't have to.

Their opinion doesn't get to be imposed on the rest of us though or affect policy or facilities.

They're a tiny group and can be ignored.

I dread to think of the DD's these posters talking about pregnancy and teenage hormones etc. have! It will not be one girl sharing a room with Jenny, it will be multiple girls, a teacher and Jenny.

If you're saying you wouldn't trust your DD to not have sex and get pregnant in that situation you need to have some serious conversation! I remember teenage hormones but strangely I don't remember this desire to have public sex that you seem to be describing!

Putting them in separate rooms doesn't mean they stay put. Having teachers sitting on the stairs. Ensuring the different rooms aren't accessible without having to pass at least two teachers and having numbers accounted for at all points in the day - that's what makes it difficult for teens to have sex on school trips. fgs do you really think teachers just hope and pray that no-one has sex rather than putting safeguards into their planning and risk assessment?

The irony is if you don't think teens are trustworthy then why are you trusting them to make the best decisions for Jenny? Why are you trusting them not to abuse Jenny's vulnerability by placing her in a situation where they are more likely to see her naked? Why are you trusting them to stay friends for the duration of their school careers and not use a later fall-out to make Jenny's life difficult by talking about what happened when they shared a room?

It's exactly because Jenny is vulnerable that she shouldn't be placed in the room with the girls.

"Teens will get around the safeguards if they are really keen, so we might as well not bother with safeguards."

Brilliant adulting there, Mackeral.

Fuck it.
Just put them all in mixed rooms.
Separate them on where they come in the alphabet.

As a teenager (15 upwards), I was drinking, shagging, smoking and pretty much trying my damnedest to get away with as many things as I possibly could.
I was sneaky, not averse to telling the odd fib and an all round pain in the ass.

I was not unique in this by any means.

A school trip was a perfect opportunity for me to get up to shenanigans away from the ever scheme-thwarting eye of my mum.

I just think it's awful that some of you suggest she is just plonked in with the boys... Jenny will obviously already be very self-conscious of her penis and can you imagine how she'd feel having to get changed in front of the boys? At least when she's with her friends, they already accept and understand her - why are people going on about how the girls could feel uncomfortable and it isn't fair - they are her friends!!!

Saying room designation is about gender is like saying Jenny is getting a separate room because she's a redhead and all the girls are blonde. She may be a redhead but it's not why she is getting a separate room. She is getting a separate room because she has a penis.

Putting Jenny in the girls' room would be like putting all the redheads, all the nerds, all the lanky kids, all the spotty kids, all the kids with a funny surname, basically all the kids that are at risk from bullying, in the girls' room, for the girls to deal with.

Because that's what this is. Insisting that women and girls be responsible for everyone's feelings, and allowing men and boys to carry on unaffected.

Incidentally, it is very much the business of the OP, and of all parents, all women and men in the UK, how the school deals with this situation. Maria Miller (Women and Equalities Minister) plans to remove these girls' right to say 'no' to biological boys in their dorm rooms, changing rooms and toilets.

This is a huge, huge issue that doesn't get nearly enough coverage. I urge everyone, even those, especially those who are in favour of Jenny sleeping in with the girls to read these articles:

Focussing on children:
www.transgendertrend.com/uk-government-report-on-transgender-equality/

Focussing on women's rights:
womenanalysingpolicyonwomen.wordpress.com/

What happens if they fall out on the trip Katie?

What if one of the former friends decides to 'get back' at Jenny by making something up about her?
Not an unknown scenario.

Feeling discriminated against and being is not the same thing

If trans women feel they are real women but laws say they are not (can change gender but not sex) because they are not female then it's their feelings that are being discriminated against not them as people

We have to decide in law if a someone can completely change sex and work from there

And as the law stands you can't (and of course biology won't allow you)

So some people are going to feel this is unfair but we have to look at what is best for everyone in society not just a few

"Jenny will obviously already be very self-conscious of her penis and can you imagine how she'd feel having to get changed in front of the boys?"

Um boys have penises. They know what to expect from another male their age. Can you imagine how self-conscious Jenny will be when undressing in front of girls? Just how awkward that will be for the girls?

I don't know - Do you care at all about the girls or are we only supposed to care first and foremost about Jenny?

"At least when she's with her friends, they already accept and understand her"

Oh come on. What would girls "understand" exactly about being a male who thinks they are a girl? What do any of us understand about the turmoil and unique challenges of that kind of mind-body disconnect?

"why are people going on about how the girls could feel uncomfortable and it isn't fair - they are her friends!!!"

Yeah, well, I had loads of male friends at that age, some of whom I knew from when we were babies. Friends doesn't mean you will be fine sharing a bedroom with males & undressing in front of them, regardless of how feminine they act while trying to hide their genitals.

The trans activists who want to drop 'trans' and be only women are a very small minority and they're entirely in the wrong.

They may be wrong in your (and my) opinion, but they have a loud voice, and wider influence.

MN is the only place left that allows these debates to take place - some of the most active debating forums have already surrendered to the trans activists who threaten legal and direct action.

More concerning is that those transactivists also have the ear of ministers, and there is a very real possibility that legislation will reflect the views of the small, but vocal, minority.

Ignoring them is dangerous.

Enthusiasm you are right. But as I just posted, laws which enshrine these feelings in people's heads as more important than actual real biological sex are being looked at by the government. They are being passed in Ireland and parts of the USA.

Please write to your MP and let them know we don't give our consent to this (www.writetothem.com)

Here's a template letter if you're not sure where to start: www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Template-letter-2.pdf

I'm going to post this article again because it's so brilliant:
womenanalysingpolicyonwomen.wordpress.com/

"We have to decide in law if a someone can completely change sex and work from there"

Laws cannot pass judgement on physical realities like whether male can become female (it can't) or when someone stops being a child, for example. What laws say is when a person can be accepted and treated as female in the eyes of the law, just like when law says everyone is a child until the age of 16.

It doesn't mean transwomen are actually (physically and literally) women, just that they are to be treated as women in the eyes of the law. Just like we all know a 15.5-year-old isn't actually a child, just that the legal system considers her a child because she is under the age of consent.

Katie most posters are saying Jenny should have her own room. I think you must have missed a lot of posts because the arguments you're presenting aren't really the ones on this thread.

I'm trying to keep up but it would take forever to reply to each question accusation individually.

Yes, despite a lot of disagreement on this thread, I do think it's my business as a parent. If, as many people say, sex and gender are so unimportant as to where a pupil should be placed, then the fact I have a DS in Jenny's year and not a DD should also be irrelevant.

Some PPs have said this post could be "massively identifying", as "poor Jenny's parents if they read this". It really isn't identifying.
Obviously Jenny is not her name, and neither was Jack her former name (not even close).
I purposely said Europe, and not the actual country within Europe they are traveling to. Nor did I mention when they are going.

*and, not as

KatieT they may well be her friends, but they are also 14 year olds with fuck all in the way of sensible judgement and experience from which to draw. Which is why adults make decisions for them.

How many MTF 14 year old trans children are going on school residentials to Europe this year?

Can't be all that many can there?

I do feel sorry for Jenny's parents if they were to read this thread. If it gets picked up by the Daily mail or The Wright Stuff they almost certainly will.

titchy I'm confused why you would assume these other girls would be willing to participate in a sex act with someone who is struggling with a transition? Also, who's to say Jenny would? If you care about them having sex, then the same concern should be for all the boys and the girls as they can too. However, if it's the babies part, teach your kids about condoms - it's not all Jenny's problem!

Also, I agree about this being very identifying...

A huge majority of threads have potential to identify the subjects. If it is a requisite that this is not the case then Mumsnet becomes rather pointless, no?

Very good point by cote. Recognition as a 'woman' in law is not the same as recognition that biology has actually, literally changed. A transwoman has not literally transformed into a woman.

The metaphorical "born in the wrong body" is exactly that (though many slow of thinking posters seem to take it literally), it has no basis in reality, it is not possible to be "born in the wrong body".