To wonder, where will a Trans pupil sleep on my DS's Europe trip?

[VioletVaccine]

In DS's form, there is a M2F trans pupil, aged 14. For the purpose of this, I'll call her Jenny, who used to be Jack.
Jack now identifies as Jenny, and is accepted as the gender she identifies as.
I don't know (it's none of my business) whether she takes hormones or not, but she dresses, lives, and wants to be considered as a female.
The vast majority of people have been accepting and understanding of the difficulties faced.
Jenny uses the disabled or staff bathrooms, and has a separate area to change after (girls) PE.
However, when the school year travel to Europe this year, I want to make a polite enquiry as to the sleeping arrangements.
This is a 6 day trip, 6 days 5 nights.
Boys are generally in one area of the hotel during school overnight excursions, and girls in the other, with respective form tutors overseeing the pupils when lights go out.
Jenny, according to DS, will be sleeping with her female best friends.
However, despite how she feels, she still has a Penis.
Should she really be in a dorm with three other girls?
Whatever Jenny identifies as her gender, her sexuality is not necessarily geared towards the opposite sex. Maybe she could be a M2F lesbian, who is attracted to girls?

Would you want your 14 year old daughter to share a room with an anatomically correct male for a week? I wouldn't.

And similarly, should someone who believes they are female, be forced to share a dorm with 3 teenage boys she isn't friends with?

Im hoping for some thoughts on how you'd handle this, and also, how to actually broach it with DS's school without being labelled a transphobic woman, a bigot, or any of the other terms that are so commonly used when you question the logistics of a situation like this?

Thank you.

Agreed, Inertia.

And all those on this thread saying "what about lesbians!!!" need to remember that lesbians can't get their partners pregnant. They also need to remember that teenage lesbians will not have a scrap of male entitlement, whereas - since male socialisation starts at birth - even a trans girl at 14 will have received their more-than-fair-share of it.

Christ imagine an insecure14 yr old trying to voice her concerns over this issue! Women twice and three times her age are getting their arses handed to them and we don't have to sit beside each other for double french on monday morning. We need to allow girls to raise objections and define boundaries . Otherwise its not real acceptance is it?

Well said, 7days.

it's tricky because I would 100% support a 14 year old who is transgender but I would also 100% support a 14 year old girl who didn't want to share a room with someone who was biologically male

neither ones rights trump the other

so another options is needed such as a seperate room

so another options is needed such as a seperate room

There's no getting away from the fact that a separate room is discriminatory, though.

Unlike a disabled pupil, for whom a separate room may be necessary in order to meet that pupils medical or emotional needs, Jenny has no needs that require her to be in a separate room.

She identifies as female, but has the biology of a man. If the rooms are segregated by gender, then in order not to be discriminated against, she should share with other girls. Whereas, if they are segregated by biological sex, then she should share with other biological males.

I understand why Jenny would want to share with her friends, rather than be singled out for a room on her own. I'm just not sure how that can be achieved in a way that maintains the safety and wellbeing of all DCs on the trip.

it's also wrong to force 14 year old girls to share with biological males - do they not have rights

If Jenny was in my care - as a teacher or parent - I would gently explain to her that as she sti has the ability to get a girl pregnant then for her own protection as well as the girls we need to keep them seperate at night.

I would explain that it doesn't matter whether she and the other girls say that they're not romantically involved, as it's not our jobs as teachers / parents to know who they are attracted to inside their minds, and whether they're telling the truth about who they might secretly fancy - and anyway things can change and attraction can blossom when and where you least expect it! But rather it is our job to put in systems that protect everybody. That it's not about her and her friends specifuially but about creating a rule for all people in the future too.

I would give her the opportunity to voice any concerns and have a chat if she wanted one.

That's reasonable, surely?

There's no getting away from the fact that a separate room is discriminatory, though.

Why is a separate room necessarily discriminatory?

*she not sti - stupid phone!

A separate room is not remotely discriminatory - it takes into account Jenny's personhood.

Just like a separate room might take into account someone's needs with regard to disabilities.

Anyone arguing against a separate room or separate facilities is at best naive or at worst misogynistic. They're the people who argue there shouldn't be a separate wing in prisons for trans people

Because it is not respecting her rights as a trans person to be treated as her chosen gender.

Because it is singling her out for 'different' treatment instead of including her in her chosen gender.

By the way, that's not my belief, I think separate facilities are right and proper - it was argued up thread that it is discriminatory and that because trans is a protected characteristic it is apparently against equality law. (Apparently).

but a separate room safeguards all concerned

Bunny do the 14 year old girls not have a right to say 'I do not wish to share a dorm with a biological male' then? Do their rights not matter?

for what it's worth my almost 14 year old DD probably wouldn't care but others might.

cross posted!

She is 'different' - she's in a very small minority of people who are trans.

Taking away her 'difference', her particular experiencing as a trans woman is extremely damaging and does not take into account her mental health.

It's basically saying 'you're female now because I can't be arsed to take into account your different experience as a trans person'. It's such lazy thinking.

BunnyTyler but she is different. To pretend otherwise is a nonsense.

Particularly until she has transitioned to the point that she has lost the ability to impregnant women, to pretend she is not any different from any other girl her age is to trample over the rights of those girls, and to ignore reality.

Where appropriate she should be in with the girls, but not without question in all situations.

I would be absolutely gobsmacked if the school allowed Jenny to share with girls. It goes against all safe-guarding protocol and OFSTED would / shoudl be all over them like a rash. Given the very sensible arrangements the school is making re toilets and changing facilities I expect your ds has got the wrong end of the stick, and that actually Jenny will be in a room by herself. Which is of course the only sensible thing to do, given the ages of the children.

Also cross posted!

But rooms aren't assigned by gender so its not singling her out because of her gender. She is being treated according to her own needs whilst respecting the rights and needs of everyone else equally.

Saying room designation is about gender is like saying Jenny is getting a separate room because she's a redhead and all the girls are blonde. She may be a redhead but it's not why she is getting a separate room. She is getting a separate room because she has a penis.

Do you realise how utterly nutty it sounds to try to claim a young trans person, who believes themselves to be a female in a male body, who has to cope with not having the sex of that body, who instead has a penis and testicles that she has to live with as not different

Of course she's fucking different. Trying to tell someone they're not different when their lives and experiencing are entirely different to
yours is minimising, bigoted, rude, dismissive.

Laurie yy exactly. It's like enshrining cognitive dissonance. Transpeople face completely different issues from women and men. Psychologically, physically, medically and emotionally their experiences are unique to transpeople. Ignoring that or pretending it's untrue, is just adding another layer of prejudice on to their existence.

Part of the problem is that certain trans activists want to pretend trans people aren't different, that they just suddenly appropriate the characteristics, history, etc, of the sex they become, but that does them a huge disservice and is cutting them off from necessary support.

My point about DD being bisexual was because obviously the OP has an issue with someone who may want to engage in sexual activity/find her daughter attractive sharing a room with her daughter.

The absolute worst thing to do is operate on a case by case basis. Jenny and her pals may allbe delighted to share. But maybe next year there maybe someone less trustworthy who calls on precedent. Better to have boring old adults being dinosaurs from the middle ages than let 14 year olds trying to cope with convoluted situations that society is still trying to figure out.
A separate room is the best solution. Safe fir everbody though it may feel hurtful for the tg student to feel different. But the difference is there unfortunately.

Oh it seems that the Op has a son so am totally perplexed at why she has an issue at all.

Or maybe she's just worried that Jack/Jenny will impregnate a whole school year whilst on the trip!!

Also pretending they are not different, would mean they do not get the healthcare they need. Jenny's body is male and this is relevant to lots of illnesses and tests. For example when your lung function is measured if you are asthmatic, different levels are used for normal if you are female or male. Biological sex matters in health care.

Of course she's fucking different. Trying to tell someone they're not different when their lives and experiencing are entirely different to yours is minimising, bigoted, rude, dismissive.

But that is exactly what the trans-activist lobby, and the campaign for changes to the equalities act, are saying.

They are saying that it is discriminatory to exclude trans-women from women-only spaces. They argue that true equality is treating trans-women like women, and not treating them differently. Even the term trans-woman is considered discriminatory and is deleted by some mainstream media sources.

If teenagers are being encouraged to socially transition (and indeed, children far younger are being supported to do so) then it is imperative that these issues are resolved, immediately. Waiting until something goes wrong is failing everybody involved.