To wonder, where will a Trans pupil sleep on my DS's Europe trip?

[VioletVaccine]

In DS's form, there is a M2F trans pupil, aged 14. For the purpose of this, I'll call her Jenny, who used to be Jack.
Jack now identifies as Jenny, and is accepted as the gender she identifies as.
I don't know (it's none of my business) whether she takes hormones or not, but she dresses, lives, and wants to be considered as a female.
The vast majority of people have been accepting and understanding of the difficulties faced.
Jenny uses the disabled or staff bathrooms, and has a separate area to change after (girls) PE.
However, when the school year travel to Europe this year, I want to make a polite enquiry as to the sleeping arrangements.
This is a 6 day trip, 6 days 5 nights.
Boys are generally in one area of the hotel during school overnight excursions, and girls in the other, with respective form tutors overseeing the pupils when lights go out.
Jenny, according to DS, will be sleeping with her female best friends.
However, despite how she feels, she still has a Penis.
Should she really be in a dorm with three other girls?
Whatever Jenny identifies as her gender, her sexuality is not necessarily geared towards the opposite sex. Maybe she could be a M2F lesbian, who is attracted to girls?

Would you want your 14 year old daughter to share a room with an anatomically correct male for a week? I wouldn't.

And similarly, should someone who believes they are female, be forced to share a dorm with 3 teenage boys she isn't friends with?

Im hoping for some thoughts on how you'd handle this, and also, how to actually broach it with DS's school without being labelled a transphobic woman, a bigot, or any of the other terms that are so commonly used when you question the logistics of a situation like this?

Thank you.

felicity

It is a concern, isn't it?

The move towards permitting biological males access to female safe spaces because those males ask for that access, strikes me as incredibly risky.

EatShit - nonsense post.

What about all the other CHILDREN whose thoughts, feelings and apprehensions are quashed because of one person?

Perhaps read the thread?

The school seem to have working procedures in place for when Jenny is in school so they should continue when they are on the trip ie Jenny's privacy is respected by having access to the disabled or staff bathrooms, and she changes on her own. Added to that, schools have working procedures for school trips too, where teens are segregated by sex. This isn't complicated so I don't understand why they're needlessly making it so. Jenny has to have her own room.

Having supervised some teen trips, I must admit I'm finding it quite funny when posters are saying let the teens decide and if they're ok with it, it must be fine. Let most 14 yr olds set the guidelines for school trips and they'll be drinking alcohol, snogging their bfs/gfs and staying up all night partying/running riot. If teens can be trusted to make the best and most sensible choices when away from home, teachers wouldn't be sitting on the stairs between dorms to make sure they're all asleep and in the room they should be in.

There seems to be a belief that if you think that biological sex is the deciding factor for the separation of the sexes for intimate functions, then you are some kind of seething mass of hatred who wants trans people hounded out of existence. This isn't the case. I would fully support additional provision of services and facilities for trans people, so that they are not put in a position where they are (or feel that they are) unsafe. If people are suffering from gender dysphoria and struggling with their mental health as a result, then of course they need appropriate medical support. However, the desire for validation of trans status for someone whose gender-reassignation has not been medically recognised does not trump the need for biological-sex-based privacy and safety.

must admit I'm finding it quite funny when posters are saying let the teens decide and if they're ok with it, it must be fine. Let most 14 yr olds set the guidelines for school trips and they'll be drinking alcohol, snogging their bfs/gfs and staying up all night partying/running riot

Well, quite. There's a good reason that 14 year olds are not legally adults and why they are considered the responsibility of parents/carers at that age!

Agree inertia.

Agree inertia
And excellent point aplaceonthecouch

Completely agree Inertia

I don't think you are being unreasonable to want to know how the school are going to deal with this situation about their sexuality well that is their business and we are not separating people and shouldn't because of their sexuality

would I want a trans boy sharing a room with ds, no I think at age of 14 many are very self conscious about their body some maybe fine other are not an as soon as they speak up they will be called transphobic when I feel it is totally understandable that some will feel uncomfortable sharing a space where privacy is needed with the opposite sex

if I had a dd would I fear for her it this situation it would certainly raise questions and I would be very concerned that her space and need for privacy is not being fully respected, a male wearing female clothes is not a female hormone treatment or not penis or no penis they are still not female they are trans boy/man

and of course a trans boy/girl/man/woman should be given a space they feel comfortable and safe in

but not the space where others may feel uncomfortable

I would worry that there might be a girl who is not happy being in the vicinity of a penis at bedtime but is too scared to speak up as everyone is is ok with it.

X-post

and of course a trans boy/girl/man/woman should be given a space they feel comfortable and safe in

This is the issue that creates the most conflict, I think. Many trans-women have publicly stated that they are not comfortable with dedicated facilities for the trans-community and are insisting on their need to share with biological females, because that is what they feel they are.
By meeting these needs, the needs of biological women to also feel safe and comfortable are being disregarded.

There is an inherent conflict that it is impossible to compromise on without the needs of one or other group being set aside.

If Jenny is sleeping with her female best friends, surely we can assume that those friends are happy with it and see her as female?

Other than that, a single room would perhaps be the option that makes all the parents happy. Jenny may not agree though.

exactly pretty

but trans women are not women, they are likely to be stronger than women, likely to be bigger so if a trans women came into a space that is for women like a changing room thought it may not be obvious I think most of us would feel something was not right and likely to feel uncomfortable why should we there are reasons why women need women only spaces I am not suggesting that trans women will be attacking women when they are allowed into women only spaces (though we know it happens) its the feeling of being safe and comfortable

its just the way it is and has to stay and that is something that trans women (and men) have to come to terms with

It is irrelevant whether Jenny is male or female, gay or straight. The point is simply that she has the ability to get a girl pregnant.

Is it protecting not just the girls but Jenny too to keep them apart at night on a school trip.

This is NOT to label Jenny a sexual predator! Teen pregnancy happens in all sorts of situations! It's just to acknowledge that it's a risk that the school should protect ALL the DC involved from - else why not have mixed dorms?

"If Jenny is sleeping with her female best friends, surely we can assume that those friends are happy with it and see her as female?"

Even if the girls are ecstatic about it is not enough to make it OK.

What if one of the girls is particularly happy about it as she fancies Jenny?

I don't think her parents or Jenny's would be particularly happy if the school trip resulted in a pregnancy, do you?!

To make up yet another imaginary scenario (sorry)

Imagine one of the girls gets pregnant but not by Jenny. What do you think the parents involved are going to think? All other parents? Imagine how much trouble the school will be in for safeguarding, before it gets to a point where it can be proved that Jenny isnt the father...?

Christ imagine an insecure14 yr old trying to voice her concerns over this issue! Women twice and three times her age are getting their arses handed to them and we don't have to sit beside each other for double french on monday morning.
We need to allow girls to raise objections and define boundaries . Otherwise its not real acceptance is it?

Actually I should qualify my first post ^^

There are lots of wider issues here of course that are more complex than simply whether a transwoman is able to impregnate woman, I don't mean my comments to apply to the bigger picture.

But for this specific situation, that would be the bottom line, for me as a parent (of one any if the DC, including Jenny)

Jenny seems to be happy with the provisions made for her at school. Those provisions respect her privacy but don't infringe on anyone else's. I don't see why she wouldn't feel the same about the school trip if she is given a room on her own. School trips don't allocate sleeping arrangements according to the preferences of the children. They are allocated according to sex. Changing that for Jenny sets a precedent that children get to decide who they share rooms with regardless of sex.

'It is irrelevant whether jenny is male or female ... just that she has the ability to get a girl pregnant'
That is exactly what the terms male and female describe. Reproductive capacity. Not personality or preferences, just sperm production system or gestation system. No idea why we can't leave that in people's pants, intact and healthy and leave people's heads and hearts free to express themselves in anyof the endless permutations of human nature.

What if one of the girls is particularly happy about it as she fancies Jenny?

Seriously?

I assume that the girls and their parents are happy with the sleeping arrangements otherwise it would never have gone ahead. Not in a million years.

..before it gets to a point where it can be proved that Jenny isnt the father...?

Yes, because of course everyone will think it is her rather than any of the other penis owners. FFS.

Also hypothetical:

Jenny is put in with girls and is inappropriate with one of the girls on the trip.
Or
Jenny is put in with girls and is falsely accused by one of the girls of inappropriate behaviour.
Or
Jenny is put in with boys and one of the boys is inappropriate with her.
Or
Jenny is put in with the boys and is falsely accused by one of the boys of inappropriate behaviour.

It is about protecting & safeguarding all the children on the trip, not just Jenny, not just the girls, not just the boys.
Everyone.

SoupDragon why the eye roll?

I was sexually active at 14 as were most of my group of friends. We were pretty open minded and a fair bit of girls snogging girls went on (within a group of people that for the most part identified as heterosexual) as as well as girls and boys together.

Most of our parents didn't have a clue.

No fucking way would I trust my teen in that position!