To wonder, where will a Trans pupil sleep on my DS's Europe trip?

[VioletVaccine]

In DS's form, there is a M2F trans pupil, aged 14. For the purpose of this, I'll call her Jenny, who used to be Jack.
Jack now identifies as Jenny, and is accepted as the gender she identifies as.
I don't know (it's none of my business) whether she takes hormones or not, but she dresses, lives, and wants to be considered as a female.
The vast majority of people have been accepting and understanding of the difficulties faced.
Jenny uses the disabled or staff bathrooms, and has a separate area to change after (girls) PE.
However, when the school year travel to Europe this year, I want to make a polite enquiry as to the sleeping arrangements.
This is a 6 day trip, 6 days 5 nights.
Boys are generally in one area of the hotel during school overnight excursions, and girls in the other, with respective form tutors overseeing the pupils when lights go out.
Jenny, according to DS, will be sleeping with her female best friends.
However, despite how she feels, she still has a Penis.
Should she really be in a dorm with three other girls?
Whatever Jenny identifies as her gender, her sexuality is not necessarily geared towards the opposite sex. Maybe she could be a M2F lesbian, who is attracted to girls?

Would you want your 14 year old daughter to share a room with an anatomically correct male for a week? I wouldn't.

And similarly, should someone who believes they are female, be forced to share a dorm with 3 teenage boys she isn't friends with?

Im hoping for some thoughts on how you'd handle this, and also, how to actually broach it with DS's school without being labelled a transphobic woman, a bigot, or any of the other terms that are so commonly used when you question the logistics of a situation like this?

Thank you.

Bunny have you not read anything? she'll be in a room with her FRIENDS, FFS... it makes me laugh that people refuse to just leave things be and let 'Jenny' and her FRIENDS enjoy their time away - what's it got to do with anyone else? Especially a whole bunch of random strangers on the Internet.

Don't agree with you at all!

If it were my daughter going on a trip and she didn't want to share with a trans female then Id support her all the way. Its her prerogative not to want to share with someone with a penis. I hope very soon there is a substantial debate regarding biological women being too often told - in the male way - that they must be quiet and just accept men in our space. That if a man says he is a woman, then he is and we must say nothing about that or be labelled trans-phobic. Those "pro-trans" are so quick to fall back on the bigot, hatred etc phrases.

Whenever there is an incident involving a trans sexually or physically assaulting a biological woman, it is completely minimised. & that agenda is a male agenda

Im also sick of hearing trans-phobia (which seems to encompass anybody who doesn't instantly and wholeheartedly accept that transwomen are the same as biological women) linked to racism "its just as bad". No - it is not. Being black is not "fluid" I am black every day, no choice, no matter how I dress speak act identify, just the same as I am a biological woman, its not a choice it just "is". Whole thing reminds me of those silly people who want to tell you what racism is and define it for you when they're not experiencing it.

A poster used the term "trans-sceptic". Well, that is what I am. I refuse to buy into this blatantly male-thinking led debate. MN is an easy target. A forum where women gather, so we get the trans debate regurgitated every couple of weeks or so, in indoctrinating fashion.

Don't aim to shut down my voice as a biological woman and think your kind of "ism" is somehow better than any other. It isn't

?? just realized I completely misunderstood the first line of the OP's post. This is a MALE TO FEMALE?? I thought we were talking female to male.

Not OK to share with the girls, sorry.

OP, Jenny is a girl. The poor child has you on here discussing her unfortunate penis and basically the liklihood that she is a rapist. Unless you think there is a high chance that the other girls are horny and will want to try her out. But they all have fingers and some may be gay so maybe you should raise this issue and suggest that each child has a room to themselves....

I'm sure the school has already thought about this and can live without your 'well meaning' questioning. You'll probably find that Jenny herself wants a private room unless her friends are really good, kind and accepting to the point that the poor girl doesn't feel self conscious. Not likely among a bunch of teenagers with mums who 'have concerns' about Jenny's penis and what she might do with it.

PS. The reason it's hard to raise this issue with the school without sounding transfer phobic etc is because saying it shows exactly how you view the trans girl.

You're going to say you are just a concerned parent and have a right to raise these issues. Sigh.

Regardless of anything else, anyones safety, the fact that Jenny may be a lovely person, that sharing a room with Jenny would involve nothing more dangerous than a few giggles and loads of fun, etc, Jenny is not a girl.

I don't see an issue with it. She is going to share with her best friends so I assume those girls are comfortable with her sharing with them - they (and their parents) are the only ones that have a right to be concerned and if they're not then its all fine.

I have a friend that is MTF so this is a matter close to me. It was hard at first to accept, I still sometimes use the wrong pronoun in my head but now I realise how much of a big deal it is to her to be treated as female.

Poor Jennie and her family. I hope they don't chance upon this thread.

Agree, Jenny is NOT a girl. Its about strictly this for me, not thinking "oh he could be a rapist", which pro-trans will pounce on as 1 person comes out with that, as being in line with what we all think.. You have a penis? Go share with boys. & that would be my line whether gay, straight, trans. & Id be taking into account that some girls may not actually want trans and his penis sharing, because soon enough from a young age, on top of all the other pressures out there, young girls are going to be browbeated into accepting M2F into their private spaces as standard. All because the pro-trans couldn't give a shit about anything but their own, single-minded, male-driven agenda of I don't care what your concerns are, you aren't allowed to state them we have terms to cover that, so do as you're told, woman.

I think "biological women" - I can't believe its come to this term because of gender-gaming fukry - need to be a lot more vocal in wider society about this issue. Its getting to that time

My heart breaks a little reading posts like mistresses.

Some people are so desperate to segregate they can't see that there really is no problem. Other than a problem of letting go of prejudices.

All because the pro-trans couldn't give a shit about anything but their own, single-minded, male-driven agenda of I don't care what your concerns are, you aren't allowed to state them we have terms to cover that, so do as you're told, woman.

This a thousand times.

So this is the second thread on the subject - I don't understand why?

What on earth has it got to do with you? It won't affect your ds in anyway. You are trans phobic, even if you don't realise it.

Polly, I completey agree

Poor poor Jenny. As if life isn't hard enough, she has the parent of a class mate post all about her on MN and speculate as to whether or not other parents should be worried in case she wakes up in the night and attacks them.

This is quite sick.

Either she will have her own room, or the parents of her friends are more tolerant than you.

Suicide levels are very high among trans people. And we wonder why.

I wonder if, 50 years ago in Alabama, people were having the same conversations about black children sharing with white children.

SueLawley I completely agree.

I feel so sad that if this situation is true (which I doubt), that there is a 14 year old being subject to an ongoing emotive discussion by a bunch of people who it has nothing to do with.

What next, bring back racial segregation?

Yes, poor Jenny. It must be awful to have such self loathing and complex mental health issues.

But poor girls who will either have to share or he accused of bigotry.

Not sure what your interest is & the school may reply to that effect too. The school has found a great working solution - Jenny has good friends so she is going to share with them.

It's crude to reduce someone to their physical attribute(s) & use it to judge their predicted behviour.

What mistress dee cee said.

Jenny needs her own room.

It would be very difficult for a girl to even hint at feeling uncomfortable about sharing a room with someone who still has a penis (look at the immediate cries of bigot If someone dares suggest Jenny is not a girl) & the girls should not be put in that potential position. I would assume own room might be easier for Jenny as well.

I would be stunned by the way of the school haven't already arranged for Jenny to have her own room - whatever the grapevine says.

Surely the only questions that need to be asked are

Have the girls sharing with Jenny been asked?
have they agreed to it?
and
Have the parents of the girls been asked?
and
Have they agreed to it?

If the answer to these questions is yes then there shouldn't be any issue.

Devilishpyjamas

Letting have her own room could be seen as singling someone out and being treated differently.

It is a mine field for schools, as I posted on the other thread I am surprised that they have been allowed to let Jenny use the disabled toilets and separate changing areas.

"Jenny is a girl"

No she's not. She's a trans female. Don't try and take away trans people's unique experience of being trans.

You have no idea what her life experience is as a trans female.

It's just as unique as my experience of being born and brought up a woman. Don't lump her into my category because you're too lazy to think trans people have a unique experience.

Jenny isn't a girl, she's a trans girl.

It is the OP's son's business. (OP, with what I'm about to say I don't mean your DS specifically, bear with me)

It's the business of all men and boys to stop excluding feminine men. To stop enforcing the rigid boundaries of who is a man and who is a not-man with violence. After all, why can't Jenny sleep in the boy's dorm? Either the boys represent a threat to Jenny, and therefore boys (including Jenny) are a threat, or the whole thing is an exercise in validating Jenny's idea of himself. Either way, the girls are not being considered here.

This will not be solved overnight, maybe not in our lifetimes. But in the meantime it is not the job of women to accept, uncomplaining, those men who do not buy into the football-money-trousers-violence idea of what a man is into the spaces in which we are naked and/or vulnerable.

Female and male bodies are different from each other. This is the basis of female oppression. Dorms, changing rooms, hospital wards etc are not segregated so they can serve as football/make-up discussion groups as some pp have suggested. They are segregated for the dignity and privacy of everyone.