To wonder, where will a Trans pupil sleep on my DS's Europe trip?

[VioletVaccine]

In DS's form, there is a M2F trans pupil, aged 14. For the purpose of this, I'll call her Jenny, who used to be Jack.
Jack now identifies as Jenny, and is accepted as the gender she identifies as.
I don't know (it's none of my business) whether she takes hormones or not, but she dresses, lives, and wants to be considered as a female.
The vast majority of people have been accepting and understanding of the difficulties faced.
Jenny uses the disabled or staff bathrooms, and has a separate area to change after (girls) PE.
However, when the school year travel to Europe this year, I want to make a polite enquiry as to the sleeping arrangements.
This is a 6 day trip, 6 days 5 nights.
Boys are generally in one area of the hotel during school overnight excursions, and girls in the other, with respective form tutors overseeing the pupils when lights go out.
Jenny, according to DS, will be sleeping with her female best friends.
However, despite how she feels, she still has a Penis.
Should she really be in a dorm with three other girls?
Whatever Jenny identifies as her gender, her sexuality is not necessarily geared towards the opposite sex. Maybe she could be a M2F lesbian, who is attracted to girls?

Would you want your 14 year old daughter to share a room with an anatomically correct male for a week? I wouldn't.

And similarly, should someone who believes they are female, be forced to share a dorm with 3 teenage boys she isn't friends with?

Im hoping for some thoughts on how you'd handle this, and also, how to actually broach it with DS's school without being labelled a transphobic woman, a bigot, or any of the other terms that are so commonly used when you question the logistics of a situation like this?

Thank you.

Not being funny, you all going on about how they can make babies... Why is that just Jenny's problem? Tell your child about contraception and if you think it's all wrong to be encouraging condoms, etc. at that age (which it isn't) don't say it's different to two lesbian/gay people participating in sex. Urgh.

They are still the sex they were born, regardless of how they feel.

Personally I don't agree that gender is tied to sex. I suppose if you do feel that being a woman is all about sex and nothing to do with gender then I can understand why you would think that it's impossible to become or stop being a woman. But personally I feel that womanhood (and manhood) is a complex collection of socially constructed traits and norms, constructed around and inspired by biological sex of course, but not identical to it.

For those of you with a "fully functioning penis" obsession, once a trans youth begins any sort of therapy, initially hormone suppressors are prescribed (to block the progression of puberty - and in M2F, it also makes erections and ejaculation exceptionally unlikely). After that, once hormone therapy is initiated, the individual is rendered infertile. I know this without doubt. Girls rooming with Jenny would not randomly fall pregnant by sharing space with her.

However, OP, your concern with what is occurring under the clothing of a young woman whose participation on this trip in no way affects you OR your family, is so far out of line as to be offensive.

Wind your neck in and busy yourself tending your own garden.

But to address your point, the idea that "being a woman" is more about gender than about sex is not a viewpoint that is only held by trans-people. Lots of people think this. And so trans-people who say that they are a man/woman when they have the opposite biological sex are not "denying reality" (they're not denying that they have a different biological sex to gender) - they're simply espousing a view of manhood/womanhood that you don't agree with. For you womanhood is about sex, for them it's about gender. Of course it's fine to disagree with that, but it's disingenuous to suggest that anyone is denying reality - they're not, they just interpret it differently to you.

Sounds like you've had a tough time, really.

I'm not sure the medical professionals around you have been particularly helpful by the sounds of it. Being female isn't a spiritual thing. There aren't male or female souls. There aren't male or female brains either. So it's not possible for a 'female' or 'male' to be born into a corresponding, or not corresponding, body. I really do wish the medical profession would keep up with medical facts and the research. It's so damaging to children who are already struggling. I hope you get some more appropriate support for your child through their teenage years, and they can grow to be whoever, however and whatever they want as an adult, without the pressure of a label, or requirement to fit to 'type'.

This discussion is too hypothetically specific to have any reasonable debate on trans issues as a whole. Too much room for anecdotal and "I have a mate who is...." posts that are valid in their own right, but don't necessarily fit the point. But nonetheless can't be dismissed (without causing offence). I DO think there is a safeguarding issue, but the school will know best how to deal with this, and I'm fairly sure they will have given it plenty of discussion with those involved.

I argued (as a student nurse 20+ years ago when face with the 'which bit of the ward do they go in?') that no-one goes through the torment of declaring their different-from-birth gender to oogle the bodies of the gender they are transferring too.

The trauma involved to them and their families is too great to think this is of concern. I would have no problem with my daughters sharing a room with a female who was born and identified as having a penis. Even if they still have one. I plan to have discussed this with my DDs by the time this would be an issue. Forgive me for not having done so far - we have merely discussed that they are free to marry anyone they like regardless of genitalia and that people do not fit in boxes.

Get you head out of underwear and treat each issue as individual; will always be my ongoing message. If you feel the person is not being honest (the gay male who takes too much pleasure in access to female breasts, my example) then deal with that issue. But sharing rooms? I don't share showers or walk around nude in front of anyone. I have shared accommodation with male friends. Normal boundaries should apply and be fine.

theycallme

No, my 'concerns' are not for my Son. I think you may have misunderstood my post.
My worries are for where Jenny should sleep, for the comfort and safeguarding of all on the trip, including Jenny herself.

jello I find that view really difficult to accept.

On a day to day basis I have never really think about being a woman. I identify in the main as a human being first and foremost, my sex is not who I am. My own identity and self-worth have very little to do with gender. My family, my friends, my career, my volunteering work and my hobbies define who I am. Not what I wear, my make-up or how I have my hair cut.

It frustrates me that others see my gender as being important or changes the way they may interact with me. I grew up in the 1970s when females roles were still fairly restrictive and have always believed the fripperies of femaleness were damaging to our rights.

They are still the sex they were born, regardless of how they feel.

I agree.

I am not trying to be antagonistic, though I understand it's a sensitive issue. I haven't started this to criticise or to judge.
I just wonder where the line is drawn, that's all.
As well as DS, I have two younger DD.

Do I want them to experience foreign countries and cultures on school residentials, absolutely yes.

But I don't want them to share mixed dorms aged 14, because it is too touchy a subject to raise without being labelled as intolerant.

I think jenny needs to be either with the boys or by herself. It is not apporiate for her to share a room with female students.

elfycat the transexual of 20 years ago maybe, but now?
I'd start with autogynophile, and work outwards.

venividi

Thanks for your faux concern but our medical professionals have been amazing and have no need to keep up with medical facts and research. I say this as they are the leading medical professionals in this field.

So we have no need to seek out more appropriate support and my daughter is happy with the "label" she has - that is, my daughter and my parents' granddaughter.

We have no need for pyscho babble about souls, types and labels. The facts are she was born my son and is now my daughter.

I've had no more a tough time than any other parent, as I fully accept my daughter's identity. The person that had it tough was my daughter due to attitudes like yours.

I don't how would feel. I wouldn't worry about it if I didn't need to though. Life must be very hard for 'jenny'. I would try to trust that the teachers use their professional judgment to make the right decision for everyone.

It frustrates me that others see my gender as being important or changes the way they may interact with me. I grew up in the 1970s when females roles were still fairly restrictive and have always believed the fripperies of femaleness were damaging to our rights.

But you accept that you do have a gender, and that you're in control of how it's performed. That's exactly how trans people feel. The only difference that you are a woman who chooses to perform a female gender, without the aspects of it you consider "the fripperies of femaleness." They choose to perform the gender that is different to their assigned sex.

My worries are for where Jenny should sleep, for the comfort and safeguarding of all on the trip, including Jenny herself

Ok - but surely this is matter for Jenny and the people who Jenny will be rooming with? If your son was going to share with Jenny then I can see it would affect him. but as it doesn't, I don't see why you could help the conversation - presumably you haven't actually spoken to Jenny or her friends, and presumably the school and these children's parents have?

Thank you, mello

I think the OP actually directed that at my post, but used the wrong name.

The busybodies who meddle "out of concern for others" need to think hard about how they would feel having relative strangers delving so intimately in their lives and posting it on public forums

Another thought what if jenny has a wet dream. I can't imagine my 14 year old self coping well with that.

Oh the time I bleed through my pad and pjs on an overnight camp. Wouldn't of coped if I'd been in a room with a boy

Let's think about this for a moment

a) Jenny is going to be very self-conscious about her anatomy. It's very unlikely that she would want anyone else to see her naked, given that she has clearly worked hard to be seen as female.

b) If Jenny has yet to start puberty in any meaningful way, she is not going to have a fully functioning penis. If she is taking hormone blockers (to pause puberty) then she will not have a fully functioning penis. She is not yet old enough to be given cross-sex hormones, according to NHS guidelines - but if she had, then that would also affect her ability to get an erection. If she has started puberty in a meaningful way, and she is not taking hormone blockers, then it's likely that it would be becoming increasingly obvious (much to her distress, no doubt).

c) Your son is not going to be affected by Jenny sharing a room with other girls - it's none of your business and you really are poking your nose into other people's business here.

d) To separate Jenny off into a single room because of her gender identity is discrimination that borders on the illegal - the Equality Challenge Unit (which works with colleges and universities, but note that the law does not make any distinction between different age groups when it comes to equality law) states that "a trans person should have access to ‘men-only’ and ‘women-only’ areas according to the gender in which they present. This includes single-sex accommodation, changing rooms and toilets. It is not acceptable to restrict a trans person to using disabled toilets or other unisex facilities" - so the school is already on rather thin ice if they are forcing Jenny to use disabled / staff toilets www.ecu.ac.uk/guidance-resources/inclusive-environment/providing-support/trans-people/

Let's not forget that this is a CHILD we are talking about here, and one who is no doubt having quite a tough time of it at the moment. Why would you seek to make her feel any more different than she already does, why would you try and make her life more difficult than it already has to be? It's an issue that is between her, her parents and the school - not you.

jello I'm not quite sure I do accept I have a gender, I believe it is mainly a social construct.

I do understand that from the point of view of many transwomen I may be privileged to have been 'born a Woman' and I cannot imagine what it feels like to have the desire to present as a woman when your sex is male. I believe very strongly that people should be able to live their lives how they wish and without judgement as long as it doesn't impinge on others rights.

However to me during my life, being perceived by my sex (or gender role) as a woman has sometimes been problematic. At my first promotion interview in the early 80s I was asked when I planned to start a family. Child care was difficult to fund and find when my DS was young. I was groped, ogled and cat-called walking down the street in my youth. I still feel unsafe on my own when out in the evening. As an older woman I sometimes experience being invisible.

I believe our society is still quite patriarchal and overly emphasises the importance of maleness and I suspect that for a number of transwomen they are rejecting that narrow male gender stereotype first and foremost before coming to the conclusion that they identify as female.

My ideal would be that gender should not be used to define us at all. Biological sex does have an impact on certain aspects of our risks and health but other than that people should just be people.

jello, can I assume you think that biological females form a class of people that no longer has any relevance politically or sociologically, and so it doesn't matter that we can no longer name ourselves 'women'?

Biological females are half the human race and experience a whole load of things including oppressions as a result of our biology. Redefining 'womanhood' as now relating to the swirly mix of personality traits and performance that is gender rather than biology takes away a word we could use to name ourselves and no longer can. How is this OK? Do we no longer need to name ourselves? Do we have to fall back on 'biological females'?

If so, can we redefine a whole swathe of formerly women's spaces and organisations (everything from changing rooms to refuges to women's colleges') as 'biological-female '? Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad, if we could rename these things - things that were never set up for people who share a 'gender', but were set up for people who share a biological sex and the discrimination and vulnerability that results specifically from that.

As for the OP - I think most responsible adults would not put any two teenagers who are capable of having the type of sex that can lead to a baby into a situation where they are sleeping in the same room on a trip away, regardless of whether those people share the label of 'girl'. I would guess in the case of the OP that's all been sorted though and she doesn't need to worry.

(I find the idea that 'Jenny' must be quiet and unassuming to be rather patronising - are we assuming that to want to 'become' a woman someone must be likely to adopt a demure persona?)

I'm a woman, and I don't accept that I 'perform' gender through choice. We are all socialised to behave in particular ways. Sometime we are able to break pattern and some we don't depending on a whole host of reasons, some personal and some social.

I have a teenage daughter who is more than happy to accept the whole trans narrative. She has two friends who have currently changed names, but as both are female it doesn't really matter too much in the context of this thread (one has just decided to be gender fluid, the other is presenting as a boy). I am trans-sceptic, and if the scenario as described came up I would be very clear with the school that my dd was not to share with this child, regardless of whether she was cool with the idea.

dd had a close friend who came out as gay a year or so ago. His group of female friends were very supportive (especially dd as she is bisexual so felt they bonded over their non straightness IYSWIM). They went on a camping trip last year (all aged 14/15) and shared a tent. He sexually assaulted two of them. They were all devastated, especially at the betrayal of their friendship, he on the other hand was totally blase - 'just interested' apparently. dd wasn't one of those assaulted (just devastated that she was unable to protect her friends) and I couldn't really go to the police about it as one of her friends who was assaulted (woke up to find his hands in her pants) absolutely didn't want her family to know.

He was to all appearances a nice guy. Many rapists are.

Actually Trans people who are taking hormones have different reactions in terms of erections. Some still do get erections and use their penis during sex. Some do not get erections. It is simply false to say that an erection is never possible. Indeed some trans people taking hormones have got a woman pregnant through sex.

I expect that Jenny will sleep wherever Jenny wants to sleep, irrespective of what the actual biological girls in the scenario want, because male feelings are the most important thing. Biological girls/women wanting their own space, away from biological males, is bigotry, hatred and violence now.

Why is it all about Jenny, and how Jenny might feel, and about Jenny being discriminated against?

What about every other one if the minors on this trip?
Do they not matter?

If Jenny is 'presenting as female therefore must be allowed to use female spaces and cannot be put into a single room because it discriminates her', then where are the rights of the born females who don't actually feel comfortable with sharing a room with a male?

Why is it all about the 1?

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