To not understand how couples who work can afford a second child??

[TheAngelofNitshillRoad]

Without waiting until the first child is in school, anyway!!

DD is 13 months. I work part time (3 days per week) - we pay approx £600 per month on nursery fees.

I worked full time before I went on mat leave. Only got statutory maternity pay after the first six weeks. I took 9 months off and by the end of it we were completely skint. We're building back up now but it's hard because the nursery fees are high and obviously I've had a significant salary reduction. We've stripped back our outgoings as much as we can, so we cover our outgoings and have a little bit of disposable income each month, but it's hard to save.

We had always considered starting to try for another baby towards the end of this year. I didn't want too big an age gap between DD1 and DC2 and I'll be honest, I'm really beginning to feel that broody feeling. But I just can't see how we can do this.

It seems to me that while I'm on mat leave, we will need to pay the nursery to keep DD1's nursery place open (although I don't think I would put her in for three full days each week, I wouldn't want her to feel pushed out at home with new baby). If I go back down to statutory maternity pay, we physically will not have the cash available to pay these nursery fees. So we have no option but to out DC2 off for....ages really! I've been trying to save where I can, transfer the odd twenty quid to my ISA but it's a slow, slow process.

Am I missing something?? Are we approaching this the wrong way?? How do people afford this??

We will start teying for dc 2 now, ds will be 4 next week. I am 37 so ideally would have liked us to have the baby days behind us by now as well as a smaller age gap but there is no chance we could have coped logistically or financially any sooner. What will be will be. We may stay with one child.

PS You'd be surprised how many 'huge companies' get this wrong. I have had issues both times with getting salary sacrificed benefits whilst on maternity leave and both times the employer has been wrong and has had to concede. The first time, I was working for a top 30 law firm and the second time i was working for.... (wait for it)... HMRC!! They took advice from the solicitors team and paid me once i pointed out that they were wrong. They had thougjt that they didnt have to pay them because i had started the job pregnant and so had no entitlement to maternity pay. The rights to pay and to non-cash benefits are quite separate, and they are statutory - not laid down by HMRC.

Ime they either:

• have LOTS of local family happy to do childcare.
• earn buckets (drs, dentists, lawyers over age of 30, live no where near London)
• both parents do part time so sharing the child care - presumably in order to keep their jobs going/ flexibility to up hours when oldest goes to school.
• one parent earns enough for other to be sahp.
• one parent is a childminder.

I'd always assumed I'd have a 3 year age gap. Lo is now 3.3. Ill health has upset that, but actually I've realised a 4-5 gap is going to be better. (Not yet pregnant nor sure if can have #2!) I've no idea how we would have managed if they were closer together.

Only work couple of days but have nanny for childcare. Dc 2 due when son is 2 1/2. I want them fairly close together so I can go back to work full time to get a bigger house! 8 years of part time work and we'd never afford anything again. I'm looking at it as getting by for a few years before we can afford things again

Marynary it is a legal entitlement to receive childcare vouchers throughout maternity leave - it's not a matter for company policy or a decision for each employer. It's a legal requirement.

As you say many huge companies don't give the vouchers. I appreciate that it might be discriminatory to make women leave the scheme when on maternity leave but what is to stop them only paying the minimum amount in childcare vouchers to stay in the scheme e.g. £20? Also they could decide to leave the scheme altogether if they decide it costs too much.Alternatively, many companies currently give enhanced maternity pay for the first six months and they may decide to stop doing that if they are then required to pay childcare vouchers for the remaining 6 months and there is nothing to stop them.

Also as someone said the company they work for took legal advice and decided that they don't have to give it if it is "discretionary" when people sign up. They could be wrong but there isn't much employees can do apart from taking them to court.
I wonder if the NHS pay them? I would be surprised if they haven't found a way around it.

If you find out the answer can you let me know? DS is 13 months and with a CM 4 days a week and were expecting DC2 in July. This was a complete shock as it took 5 years and numerous rounds of IVF to have DS!!

Haven't yet figured out how we'll manage when my second mat leave is over, we don't have family to offer child care and I can't really afford to leave work. We will look into condensing hours (so full time over 3 days) and different working hours to make it work until DS starts getting free hours. The childcare vouchers will help but we'll still struggle to make ends meet, at least for a while.

Yes of course employers can decide to offer an overall reduced maternity package if they want to recoup some of the cost of being legally obliged to offer all non-cash benefits throughout mat leave. I make no comment about that - I'm simply telling you that the law as it currently stands requires companies to pay.

The employer cannnot simply pay a nominal amount to keep you in the scheme: your entitlement is not merely to remain in the scheme, but to receive all non-cash benefits. So if you were receiving £243pcm and then they decided to suddenly only pay you £20pcm, that would breach the law.

I would be astonished if an employer succeeded in defending a claim for vouchers during maternity leave based on childcare voucher provision being 'discretionary'. They could remove the entire scheme (which is a completely different issue) but they cannot unilaterally remove a woman who is on maternity leave from a scheme which they continue to offer to other employees on the basis that it is 'discretionary'. The right not to be discriminated against is separate from the right to receive non-cash benefits: they would still be obliged to treat a woman on mat leave the same as everyone else regardless of the contractual nature (or otherwise) of the scheme. Treating a woman differently because she is on maternity leave is automatically direct sex discrimination. It is not possible to objectively justify direct sex discrimination, and there is no statutory derogation from it in the legislation that would help them.

I completely accept that some employers may decide to change their overall employment terms to avoid having to pay for childcare vouchers - if they are incredibly short-sighted. Most employers who pay enhanced maternity benefits do so because they want to recruit and retain competent women who contribute to their business. The idea that employers all want to shirk paying women on mat leave is just not true: women in the workplace are very often highly valued and employers want to keep them. If you don't feel that this applies to you, and that you are not worth the amount of your childcare vouchers during your mat leave to your employer then that is very sad, but it doesn't change the current legal position.

I got my childcare vouchers for my second child throughout my mat leave and my company otherwise only pays the rather stingy basic mat pay. I told them it was a legal requirement and couldn't be taken from smp and they paid up.

OP, I waited (not entirely by choice, ended up needing fertility treatment) and when my dd was born my ds had just started reception. In hindsight we were mad to ttc earlier, we would not have afforded childcare for both. I struggle now paying for three days nursery and school wraparound care for the both of them, but it's just about doable and will get cheaper as my dd gets older.

My understanding of childcare vouchers is they can deduct from additionalate it pay but cannot deduct from smp and must continue to provide them.

If you pay a daily nanny then it is most cost effective to have your children very close together -w e had 3 under 4 when I went back with the third baby,.

You took 9 months nad used up savings and felt skint. I too 2 weeks off of annual leave and went back full time in all cases so not surprisingly wasn't skint. We all make choices and find what works for us. If you have to pay a nanny anyway for baby 1 there is no extra cost unless you give her a pay rise for baby number 2 and you need to keep her on so no point in taking much time off work unless you are very rich and able to afford a long maternity leave of course which most of us aren't!

As childcare vouchers are salary sacrifice, if you aren't earning your salary then I don't really understand the rationale to forcing employers to pick up the tab on your behalf.

I am still getting them as I work for my husband's business and it's seen as a maternity perk - but we wouldn't do it for any of our other employees!

I had 9 months off, I've gone back 4 days a week, if we wanted any more children we wouldn't be able to afford to. It's already really tight with just one in nursery (we pay £748 a month, which is for 3 days a week).

There are schools out there who will look after school aged children during the holidays between 8-6pm. Ring round you will find someone or just ring a child minder.

salary sacrifice = given up part of your salary for this benefit, therefore specifically NOT salary.

If you aren't earning your salary on mat leave, non cash benefits can not be affected. Its not really that hard to grasp.

That is a big chunk off your money for child care can't you find work in the evening or weekend when your dp could look after the child.

Have you priced up a child-minder? Much more reasonable than a nursery and if you get a good one worth their weight in gold

I live in Denmark.

The council pays 70% of the cost + I get a discount for having two siblings in same institution, I pay about £300/month for both of them full time...

The Nordic way is the only way I could have two kids so close together - it's worth that 38% marginal tax rate, as the Danes put it, their welfare system is really like a bank, sometimes you pay in more, sometimes you'll take out more...

It's probably why there are so many working parents, though to be fair, managing a family on one salary here is also pretty difficult.

I have two DC under 3 and to be honest we struggle to afford them! We live in the South East so big mortgage and expensive childcare... Financially it's difficult and we don't have enough to cover our outgoings at the moment but have decided to get into a bit of short term debt in order to have them close in age... We have good jobs so feel confident it will iron out in the future and don't plan to have any more kids. Our house holds a fair bit of equity so if things get really tough will remortgage or move but hoping it doesn't come to that! Lastly I have just started shopping in Aldi which is saving a few pennies!

We started ttc about 9months after dd1 because she was about 6yrs in the making and we thought we'd struggle again but instead ended up with an 18m (almost 19m) age gap between dd1 and ds1 (which we were thrilled about but also how the fuck are we going to survive because as you said better to wait till the 1st is at school). I had 6m off mat leave with dd1 as had just changed jobs before I realised I was expecting so only got mat allowance and 7m mat leave the 2nd time round went back to work full time and had both in nursery full time (live nowhere near any family to help with childcare). Only just in January did dd1 get the 15hrs so up until then been paying 2 X full time.
Dh and I made the decision for me to go back to work full time and pretty much earn nothing the first time as we felt long term it would be better for me to effectively work for nothing but progress in my career. So, I think in answer to your question, not everyone can afford it but some people might do it as they feel staying in work and not earning much will be more beneficial career wise in a few years time when they don't have nursery fees to pay.....

Mary I work for the NHS and my childcare vouchers are paid for the duration of my mat leave.

We have four
I earn 40K and DP is a sahd, he worked prior to the two youngest being born in quick succession. They're now 2.5 and almost four. It's a struggle but we have low mortgage payments (£559) and I have a fully expensed company car. We live in the north west.
It's tight some months but it's short term.
When DP can work part time and boost our income to circa 52K in 2017 we'll be fine (but will need to trade our three double bed for a five bed do maybe not significantly richer)

I'll say one thing, I eat less than I used to and I frequent charity shops a lot more!

emsyj Will this situation apply with the new scheme? If not, what is to stop employers stopping childcare vouchers for everyone and insisting they use new scheme for childcare? After all why stay in a scheme that effectively can cost them quite a lot of money when the new one doesn't?

I have two children at the nursery and we are just covering our bills, we can not afford anything extra for ourselves and I cannot wait for my eldest to start school in september. i work 4 days a week and both kids are at the nursery on those days, my childcare bill is between 1500-1600 per month including 15 free hours for one child and 10% sibling discount.
We get no help from our parents with childcare or money ( although they can easily do that ), the only help we get is , let's say, subsidised holidays as my parents have a holiday home in Spain, so we only pay for flights and food.
We planned our finances before having 1st child, overpaid on our mortgage as much as we could, this let us have 2 mortgage holidays while I was on both maternity leaves, my company only pay SMP, so we had to save up for me to be able to afford 12 months maternity leave.
It was much easier financially with one child but two is a financial burden. I know that my DH and I are get paid good salaries, I seriously don't know how people can afford it on lower pays. It does really help if you have grandparents who are willing to help with childcare.

I had twins and worked full time. I basically ran my household at a loss for four years and accumulated a fair bit of debt. I was frequently cold and hungry due to skimping on food and heating in order to make ends meet, and TBH the only reason I managed to stay afloat was because I had a ridiculously low mortgage. Even so, by the time the twins started school and my childcare costs halved, I was very, very near the limits of my resilience.

I don't have any answers OP. It's hard. And in a society where working is prized over community, so extended family/friend networks can no longer pick up childcare duties affordably, it is a travesty that childcare is so massively unsupported by our governments. An awful lot of female talent is being lost as a result.

You have my sympathy with your frustration though.