To not understand how couples who work can afford a second child??

[TheAngelofNitshillRoad]

Without waiting until the first child is in school, anyway!!

DD is 13 months. I work part time (3 days per week) - we pay approx £600 per month on nursery fees.

I worked full time before I went on mat leave. Only got statutory maternity pay after the first six weeks. I took 9 months off and by the end of it we were completely skint. We're building back up now but it's hard because the nursery fees are high and obviously I've had a significant salary reduction. We've stripped back our outgoings as much as we can, so we cover our outgoings and have a little bit of disposable income each month, but it's hard to save.

We had always considered starting to try for another baby towards the end of this year. I didn't want too big an age gap between DD1 and DC2 and I'll be honest, I'm really beginning to feel that broody feeling. But I just can't see how we can do this.

It seems to me that while I'm on mat leave, we will need to pay the nursery to keep DD1's nursery place open (although I don't think I would put her in for three full days each week, I wouldn't want her to feel pushed out at home with new baby). If I go back down to statutory maternity pay, we physically will not have the cash available to pay these nursery fees. So we have no option but to out DC2 off for....ages really! I've been trying to save where I can, transfer the odd twenty quid to my ISA but it's a slow, slow process.

Am I missing something?? Are we approaching this the wrong way?? How do people afford this??

With a big age gap (IMO 3 years is enough to be a big age gap) kids do not play together the same way that kids with a smaller age gap do.

That is just a fact.

However with a big age gap they may well still play together. Probably will unless the age gap is over a decade... even then the older one might play with the little one in the way a babysitter would...

The way close in age siblings play together is not necessarily better. The way siblings with a bigger gap play together is not necessarily better. It is not the same though. Kids with an age gap don't play as equal peers the way kids with a small gap do, there is a different balance of power, a different relationship. The games are different. With a gap of under about 30 months kids are likely to play together the way they play with their friends, with a big gap that is unlikely. Depending on the size of the gap and the personality of the kids they play together like a babysitter with a child in their care, or like a child with their puppy or much loved toy :o

The gap has nothing to do with how siblings get on as adults - that is down to personality first and to how the parents treated them in relation to one another (was one favoured, was one scapegoated, was the older one expected to entertain the younger whether they wanted to or not and at the expense of their own friendships, hobbies, or homework, did parents allow one to bully the other and not notice or think that was just regular sibling behaviour etc.)

Schwabische that is not a fact. It's your opinion. It'll depend entirely on the interests of the children how well they play together. My brother is 4 years older than me. He loved imaginative play age 7 as much as I did at 3. He also loved playmobil as did I. I have many fond memories of us playing schools/doctors/plAymobil games.
This has nothing to do with the thread but I think it's wrong to state that as fact.

OK waiting I'll give you the fact I wouldn't know how to directly prove it is a fact (there probably aren't any studies, as what would be the point and where would be the funding :o). It is just my experience and my opinion.

I have 24 month gap and then a 3.5 year gap. The kids with the 2 year gap now play Plamobil as equals. They will also play Playmobile with the youngest, but the nature of the play is really intrinsically different - not less enjoyable or less valuable or anything, but very clearly different. I've also child minded and been a teacher, including a couple of years of working in a tiny Montessori influenced (not straight Montessori) child led school with deliberately mixed age classes of 6-11 year olds, and lots of group work and a forest day per week where children had a lot of freedom to choose activities and who to work and play with, and when there is a significant age gap among primary age children the children interact or work together very differently than when they are with same or close in age peers.

Anecdotal you are right though, as I don't have specific objective peer reviewed proof I can point you to I was going to far with the word fact I acknowledge but its true

We did a nanny share once DS2 came along. It worked out miles cheaper than nursery.

We use our childcare vouchers but when I go back to work in 2 weeks I will be paying out more than I earn until September when DS1 gets 16 hours free childcare for his preschool place. So it's worth me keeping my job for 6 months on no money because it will be hard for me to find Another job with the hours that suit me. It's just a bit shit that it's so expensive.

One person I know got to go back to work full time and have free childcare 8-6 5 days a week from grandparents, I'm very envious.

Yet again marynary, you can't be complaining about other people getting 'worked up' over something when you have made the same number of posts as them about it. You are going on as much as I am, and indeed with every post you make, more. If you thought this was a minor issue, you would give over.

And you very much are in a minority of posters who think the thread is weird. Coincidentally, the only two whose comprehension skills are so piss poor that they think the impact of childcare vouchers is minimal, despite the OP herself saying their continued availability while on SMP may be a game changer for her. I mean, rtft. So in summary, your view that it's odd to not understand how people might be able to afford it is bizarre, since multiple people on this thread weren't aware of the existence of the thing that may help OP afford it. Your continued insistence that it isn't is ridiculous, and if you really consider the issue to be so unimportant, stop making increasingly flustered posts about it.

Mary they have to pay your childcare vouchers or the tax you would have saved on them. They are a non-financial benefit and cannot be taken from smp.

I don't really get what you mean. Yes, they will pay childcare vouchers if they are paying money on top of SMP. Leave is usually unpaid after a certain amount of time though (in my company 16 weeks) so why would they pay childcare vouchers?

Ah I see what you mean. The HMRC thinks they should be given when women are on maternity... My company (huge company) don't pay childcare vouchers when people are on maternity and I am sure that they wouldn't do this without legal advice. I also think that if they were forced to they would either reduce other maternity benefits to compensate or stop salary sacrifice schemes altogether.

JizzyStradlin I think that you are worked up because you are going on and on about it and because you are being quite rude. Lol that you think you are making me flustered...

My dsis had this recently. Her employer stopped her childcare vouchers, she challenged it and got them back :). It was exactly 10 years ago that I returned from mat leave with dd. We both claimed tax relief, DS had his free hours and tbh I think childcare was more affordable. I have a few friends who either waited for the free hours or the older one to be school age to tcc.

Given that you also think this thread asks an odd question marynary, and that vouchers during maternity aren't going to make much difference even though several people on this thread have said they do, I think the question is why you'd imagine you thinking something would be of any interest or relevance.

Keep digging though. Your attempts to carve out some kind of moral high ground get funnier with each post.

My ds is 2 end of March and I am due Aug, he does two days a week at nursery but we are changing him to a childminder to save costs (around £88 per month) my work pay for my childcare vouchers whilst I am on may leave which means I only have to pay half the fee! The rest is for me to use as personal spends, I'm currently saving roughly £120 a month to have as a buffer and my dp pays all bills! If he couldn't do that we wouldn't be able to have another. When I go back to work we should have the free funded hours for ds which will help a bit!

Keep digging though. Your attempts to carve out some kind of moral high ground get funnier with each post.

Since when have I attempted to "carve some sort of moral high ground". I just think you are ridiculous to go on and on about the fact that I think it is odd to wonder how people can afford a second child. It obviously depends on income (and that include maternity benefits and/or vouchers) and outgoings.
Anyway, I have had enough of arguing with a random neurotic stranger on the internet so will ignore anymore of your posts.

I'm a sahm but most people I know either had big age gaps or family childcare.

I'm glad you asked me that marynary. You are trying to carve out a moral high ground when you do the following:

• criticise me for 'going on' about a topic that you initiated and you have made more posts on than I.

• whined about rudeness when you have been rude yourself. This is also called tone policing, and is pathetic.

• call me neurotic, use phrases like get a grip etc, whilst all the while behaving in the exact same way.

Basically any time you're in a pissing match and loudly decry people for certain behaviours whilst doing the exact same yourself. I do hope, for your sake, that you stick to your promise to cease responding though. You've made yourself look enough of an arse already.

We have Gparent help. Without them, we'd have been in massive debt.

Mine are 3.5 years apart and seems to work very well as the older was old enough to understand about sharing time, waiting, and being able to do fund stuff that a baby couldn't, but not old enough to really remember anything pre-baby.

admittedly I'd hoped for a gap under 2 years...

Once the 15 free hours kicked in at nursery, just after ds started school, it became fine, but funds were tight until then even with 2 lots of old-style childcare vouchers. And fitting in work round a commute and children in 2 places was actually more difficult, even though it was easier financially.

I work nights and dh works days

Are your kids school aged wicked? If not when do you sleep?

Jizzy - I don't think Mary is the one making an arse of herself here. Her initial response may have misjudged the OP's question but your response has been disproportionately scathing IMO.

4 year gap between our two. CCV covered DD1's fees as she is in term time only childcare (I'm a teacher) and I was on 3 days a week. Had half a term with them both in nursery which was hard to cover as I had no bank of vouchers to cover them both (DH started to claim his during my first maternity leave, I had to wait until I returned to work).

DD1 is now at my school so CM fees are low and DD2 in FT nursery. We pay roughly 3x our mortgage a month in fees so are looking forward to DD2 getting her free hours in a year.

My view is it's not forever and it would be detrimental to me to be out of teaching for the years it would take to be childcare free.

You're entitled to your opinion whoknows. But really, it's not disproportionately scathing to call out continued hypocrisy and failure to rtft.

I will stick to my opinion thank you.

Nobody's stopping you. But if you post it, people are allowed to disagree.

Marynary it is a legal entitlement to receive childcare vouchers throughout maternity leave - it's not a matter for company policy or a decision for each employer. It's a legal requirement. Women on either Ordinary or Additional maternity leave are entitled to all non-cash benefits as usual. This includes childcare vouchers. The position regarding pension contributions is more complex and i am not up to date on it so i wont comment on that but if your employer doesn't pay them then it is at risk of a claim. If you choose not to pursue your entitlement then that is your choice, of course.