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to be depressed that only 9% of women identify as feminists?

368 replies

parklyfe · 24/02/2016 12:11

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/only-7-per-cent-of-britons-consider-themselves-feminists/

''When split out by gender, women were more likely to identify as feminist, with nine per cent using the label compared to four per cent of men.''

Sad
OP posts:
IoraRua · 26/02/2016 15:55

Yabu to the OP. I'll term myself what I like. For me, I don't identify with a lot of the feminism I see around me, so it's not something that represents me in my life. I will use egalitarian though as that conveys the same message, and I've had more common ground with the egalitarians I've met.

SamanthaBrique · 28/02/2016 07:24

This morning there is a prime example of what I was referring to in my earlier post about the FWR boards being trolled more than others. I think this is why some of the regulars lose patience with new posters on those boards, as this is the sort of shit we put up with.

Katenka · 28/02/2016 07:40

samantha I knew it was going to be that one. I saw it in active conversations this morning/

Sounded like the ramblings of a loon.

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2016 11:54

"Sounded like the ramblings of a loon."

They aren't always that easy to spot, sadly.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/02/2016 14:52

There are people out there who actually think all sex or 'PIV' is rape? Really?

Quotes from feminist writers Dworkin, MacKinnon and Jeffrys and others. Maybe they were just intended to be triggers for discussion- they don't read as such.

All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman Catherine MacKinnon

[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which ALL MEN KEEP ALL WOMEN IN A STATE OF FEAR" [emphasis added] -- Susan Brownmiller (Against Our Will p. 6)

Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership.-- Andrea Dworkin.

Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies. -- Andrea Dworkin

One can know everything and still be unable to accept the fact that sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that the one without the imminent possibly of the other is unthinkable and impossible Andrea Dworkin, Letters from a War Zone, p. 21..

And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual [male], it may be mainly a quantitative difference.-- Susan Griffin "Rape: The All-American Crime"
(p. 86)

When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression -- Sheila Jeffrys

I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire.-- Robin Morgan, "Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape" in "Going to Far," 1974.

Under law, rape is a sex crime that is not regarded as a crime when it looks like sex. The law, speaking generally, defines rape as intercourse with force or coercion and without consent., Like sexuality under male supremacy, this definition assumes the sadomasochistic definition of sex: intercourse with force or coercion can be or become consensual

"Compare victims' reports of rape with women's reports of sex. They look a lot alike....[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it.^Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent.Catherine MacKinnon in Professing Feminism: Cautionary

But there is a massive ongoing "plan" to artificially alter women's hormones to impede one of their significant biological processes ( ie the contraceptive pill) rather than, say, amending social structures such that PIV sex was the exception rather than the norm
One such force that could be argued to oppress women is the cultural narrative that sex is primarily something men do to women involving PIV, rather than other sexy and pleasurable activities which pose much less physical risk for women (physical and emotional risk of pregnancy & birth, financial risk of motherhood etc).

And when you compare to the sort of 'mount and thrust' PIV practiced by plenty of men (NAM, and all that), the alternatives are much more pleasurable for women to boot

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2016 15:01

Lass- just a bit puzzled here. What's your agenda?

Sallyingforth · 28/02/2016 15:09

just a bit puzzled here
To put it mildly.
I feel very, very sorry for any woman who writes or believes such crap.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/02/2016 15:20

Bertrand Someone asked if PIV equals rape. It is a topic which has been discussed before.

All of those quotes are from feminist writers. Personally I think they are nonsense.

What is your agenda? Silencing dissent? Silencing any mention of this sort of nonsense?

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2016 15:29

Can I ask what the purpose is of focussing on a tiny minority of extremists? Yes, there have been in the past,- and probably still are, although I no longer know any- women who believed that the only answer was to live lives completely separate from men. And that is , of course their right. But I don't see why anyone would think them representative of women in general or feminists in particular. There are also people who have written think pieces about the whole complex area of sex and rape and the power balance in male/female relationships. Some of this writing is challenging and thought provoking. And it is Ok to disagree with it! It's not Holy Writ. Once again we come across this "A feminist wrote something I disagree with- so I'm not a feminist" attitude.

Incidentally, some of the very angry writing in the 60s/70s was the result of women becoming aware for the first time of the full extent of the was society at that time was stacked against women both in their private and public lives. That awareness -consciousness raising if you want the jargon- caused an explosion of rage in some women- a rage that was necessary to generate the courage and strength to break free. If you weren't there it's really hard to imagine what it was like.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/02/2016 15:32

Bertrand you can't have it both ways. I can't recall if was you or limited who asked for specific examples of what is so off putting about "feminism"

I have provided them.

Here's some more.

I wonder if part of the reason that women, partiularly young women, are so quick to accept transwomen as women, is because we are so familiar with the sense of being uncomfortable with our bodies, disconnected from them, and seeing them as a problem to be solved or

While my female body is a continual source of shame and suffering for me, I’ve never felt the desire to alter it to make it less female, to undergo treatment or surgery to make my body more closely resemble a male

I don't think my female body is a continual source of shame. I am a woman, quite a successful woman, and I read so many comments like the above and think this bears no resemblance to my life or the lives of my friends or colleagues.

If embracing feminism means embracing this - then , no I am not a feminist. I may well support many aims (and you know that I do) but I cannot identity (buzz word) with this mindset.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/02/2016 15:38

If you weren't there it's really hard to imagine what it was like

I was born in 1959. I am well aware of what happened in the 1970s.

The last of the PIV quotes is recent as are the quotes above. If that mindset is part of being a feminist it is alien to anything in my experience.

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2016 15:40

"All of those quotes are from feminist writers. Personally I think they are nonsense.

What is your agenda? Silencing dissent? Silencing any mention of this sort of nonsense?"

Of course not. But it would be pretty tedious if every time someone tried to talk about the Conservative party, people piled in and said "but what about Hitler? He was a right winger!" Or Stalin if Labour is being discussed. So why is Dworkin prayed in aid every time?

There is this little list of things people say when they want to explain how ridiculous and unreasonable feminists are. Feminists hate men/think all men are rapists/think all PIV sex is rape/want women to take over.Feminists shout at anyone who holds a door open for them/say that you can't be a feminist and wear makeup/are all hairy and ugly/wear dungarees. Actually, they dungarees one seems to have disappeared. It's so very boring.

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2016 15:51

"The last of the PIV quotes is recent as are the quotes above. If that mindset is part of being a feminist it is alien to anything in my experience."

It isn't.

slugseatlettuce · 28/02/2016 15:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DrSeussRevived · 28/02/2016 15:54

"And when you compare to the sort of 'mount and thrust' PIV practiced by plenty of men (NAM, and all that), the alternatives are much more pleasurable for women to boot"

I accept this is a recent quote . I don't think it's part of any kind of feminist base line. I also don't think it's controversial to say that there are types of sex more likely to give women orgasms than PIV - Cosmo has been saying that for years!

DrSeussRevived · 28/02/2016 15:57

And the first part of the quote is surely referencing that, if you aren't trying to get pregnant, other types of orgasm (for both parties) may be easier, to avoid artificial hormones, but this isn't usually proposed as a solution.

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 28/02/2016 16:05

I view it like christianity/a religion... Some are catholic, some coe, some just say 'christian', and some people dont identify as christian yet follow all their belief systems.

Some feminists are radical, some liberal, some just say they are 'feminist'. And plenty of people refuse to use the name, yet blatently believe women should be equal and are not.

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 28/02/2016 16:06

There are whole threads with 1000 posts full of the "piv=rape" debate, i cba right now! Grin

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/02/2016 16:07

What about "the continual source of shame " quotes?

As I said, some -one asked for examples of what is so alienating about identifying as a feminist. I have given you some- there are plenty more.

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2016 16:11

Some women do feel that their bodies are a source of shame. Because, you know, socialization.

Why do you have to agree with everything every feminist has said, ever, in order to be a feminist?

Lots of feminists are passionately in favour of the legalization of prostitution. I am passionately opposed to it. I don't think that makes me not a feminist.

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2016 16:12

Lots of feminists use the expression "cis-women" I don't. I don't think that makes me not a feminist.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/02/2016 16:24

Lots of feminists are passionately in favour of the legalization of prostitution. I am passionately opposed to it. I don't think that makes me not a feminist.

And , assuming you read my posts, (other than picking apart the ones you disagree with )you will know I am passionately opposed to it as well. There is a current FWR thread on this to which I am contributing. Why that makes me a feminist as opposed to human being attempting to stand by a set of values, I don't know.

My husband feels as strongly as I do yet the concensus on FWR is generally a man can be a feminist ally but not a feminist (NAFALT obviously)

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2016 16:32

I know you are. What I am trying to understand is why people think that disagreeing with something a feminist says means you aren't/can't be a feminist. Or, in many cases it seems, means you have to stop being a feminist. Lots of people say "I was a feminist, then someone on here said something disobliging and now I'm not any more."

DrSeussRevived · 28/02/2016 16:54

"While my female body is a continual source of shame and suffering for me, "

The writer is talking about her own experience of her own body; she isn't generalising to others.

I don't feel ashamed of my body, but fat shaming, period shaming, boob shaming in puberty (whether too much or too little), age shaming (see: Mary Beard) aren't too hard to exemplify.

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2016 17:54

I agree, DrSeuss. I don't understand the "It's not happening to me so it's not happening" thing. It makes me think of Margaret Thatcher.