Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

confusion over race terms

132 replies

Musicmay · 17/02/2016 02:38

So white people get accused of being racist if they call black people "coloured" including the older generations who mean no harm and white people are absolutly racist if they even think about saying anything about a race as a group... I give you Kanye west. Any thoughts on this?

confusion over race terms
OP posts:
Peyia · 18/02/2016 14:56

DesignEye what makes you think I haven't read the articles and why do you think they would be useful to me?

DesignEye · 18/02/2016 17:03

Peyia I was referring to the further explanation you asked Posie to give and the reference you made to your white husbands experience of racism. In my understanding of racism, his experience can not be compared to that of say mine, for the 'power' reasons that Posie touched on. My partner is also not black and has experienced aggression because of race from black people and his people alike. He would agree that he holds a privilege, and that that privilege makes his experience of racism incomparable to mine. He would never approach a discussion such as this by putting himself and his sensitivities in the mix, and he wouldn't do so because he has an understanding of racism but more importantly it's very real effects. There is a widely accepted view that black people can be prejudice but not racist, and this view is shared my black and white academics alike Some of the articles I linked to touched on that. I am not being argumentative with you but saying you might find those reads interesting, as did I.

grannytomine · 18/02/2016 17:26

I know racism is still going on in the UK, as a white mother I found it hard to deal with when my dual heritage daughter came home from school telling me she was called "nigger nose" by her class mates. I also found I worried about my sons as I know the prejudice they will suffer, attitudes of teachers, the police etc. I'm not sure if a black mother would be better equipped to deal with it, I suppose she would but I can't believe she would find it any easier. I have never suffered any prejudice from the black community, been welcomed by my husband's family and friends. I am sure a black mother could have given my daughter better advice about her hair, I never found it easy as I loved her hair and she just wanted it straight but she has grown out of that now, how wonderful to have the teenage years behind us.

My ancestors knew suffering as well, they came from the west coast of Ireland in one of the worst affected areas during the potato famine. Of course the difference is you can't tell that to look at me.

Peyia · 18/02/2016 18:36

DesignEye thank you for clarifying. I wasn't sure who Posie was talking to.

I did read the articles, they were informative and touched on points I'm aware of. I'm certainly not disputing the inherent problems black people face.

I found your post on page 2 educational and articulated well. I guess I wanted to share the struggles of other people, maybe misplaced on this particular thread but I thought a well rounded discussion can have compare and contrast to balance an argument. I can't speak for others but I didn't get the impression yours or PP's comments were being dismissed although I accept I could be wrong.

I'm uncomfortable (fragile) to say I'm worst off than anyone else because of my skin colour. I see that as keeping the racism alive and us all very much segregated.

Racism and prejudices are alive and kicking for many different groups of people, the Irish are a prime example and often the butt of many English jokes. There skin colour may get them so far but a lot of English see them as inferior but would never admit it. Some (in yours and mine experience) have it worst than others. Accepted. To disregard everyone else because of our history feels hypercritical. Like they don't matter? Even if they do have a privilege, what does this get them as the poverty I see some white working class people is awful.

I guess I would like to drive the discussion to how we can change attitudes. I personally (and this might offend others) do not feel informing people what they think and feel in terms of their privilege readdresses the balance.

My strategy to overcome the problems you point out is to remain educated, keep my skills current so that I can progress in my career and to be a good role model for my children. If I hit a ceiling because of my race then so be it. I can't change that but I will continue to hope that my grandchildren and their children will. After all emancipation is still to us. It will take time.

Peace and love Flowers

Peyia · 18/02/2016 18:39

still new

amarmai · 18/02/2016 19:03

Peyia your post has galvanised me to tell my story again as it has an effective ending. So mother of 3 triracial dcc-now in their 40s. When they began school were called all the racial names in the book ,as the neighbourhood cd not figure out the right insults. Eldest got the brunt of the bullying-physical- as he was the first at an almost all white school in the 70s. Silly me thought i cd deal with this by appealing to the ct=3 little monkeys- and then the principal=some cc are just born victims. Moved up the edu ladder to superintendents etc=no response. Got political and worked with trustees and Afro-Canadian groups to get a formal Anti Racism policy set up in the Board of Ed. This was done=piece of toilet paper --UNTIL a friend whose son got the same racist treatment 10 years later took it to the Canadian Human Rights Commission on the basis that the B of Ed was not carrying out its Anti Racism Policy=now a useful piece of paper as the Director of the B of Ed was forced to apologise to the child and his mother and remedy the sit. So that worked - but too late for my poor son.

AdrenalineFudge · 18/02/2016 19:22

amarmai I've read your post a couple of times but I still have no idea what you are talking about.

DesignEye · 18/02/2016 19:55

Agreed amarmai, looks interesting. Please repost....

Peyia · 18/02/2016 19:58

I think I understand Armanai, although it's difficult because some words are abbreviated.

The Board of Education had to take action because the mother complained to the Canadian Human Rights Commission? Good for her if this is the case. I would have done the same, that's why I strive to continue to better myself so that I have the confidence to take action. However, if it only gets me so far I refuse to become full of resentment as I would lose the will to live. That was the point I was trying to make in my earlier post.

Change is slowly happening, I'm sorry it didn't come quick enough for your son.

amarmai · 18/02/2016 21:06

yy Peyia. But the piece of seemingly useless paper called The Ant Racism Policy was key , as the CAN Human Rights Commission nailed that Board of Education for not following it's own policy. Which was a kind of closure for me but not for my son.

MistressDeeCee · 19/02/2016 00:18

You're the poster who last week started the thread about experiences of mental health in black women being dumb, because they could relate to anybody, aren't you?

Writing style and ignorant, sweeping generalisms exactly the same no difference. No doubt you and others will say "no its not same person" blah blah blah. But, it is. You don't even have the wit to try and sound different, and perhaps a bit educated. & yet again you've used articles/tweets to make your points media hound

I guess next week you'll be blahing on about race yet again. I opened this thread by mistake I tend to avoid race issues on here especially goady antagonistic ones. All "people of colour" (or whatever term you're on about) would be wise to do the same and know a nasty wind up when they see one. Don't get drawn into recounting your experiences and debating (sometimes arguing!) back and forth, so some idiot can get their jollies.

Troll-feeding never does any good they just namechange and keep coming back with the same subject (badly) dressed up a bit differently.

Prefer to hide thread and not say more, given the nonsensical format of opening post, all that gumpf about great grandchildren, ancestry slavery yadda yadda...makes as much "sense" as the great dissertation you claimed you wrote on race.

As you were

AdrenalineFudge · 19/02/2016 00:49

MistressDeeCee You mean this thread?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2567481-To-be-gobsmacked-by-this-article?pg=1

The thing is, racism doesn't actually exist unless of course it is being explained to you by a white person. Whilst we here on MN will champion women's rights and feminism, I'm afraid that you expressing your blackness just isn't acceptable here. Your experiences of racism are meaningless, please could you try to be a radical feminist and come again? Thanks.

Idliketoteachtheworldtosing1 · 19/02/2016 01:52

This is a very emotive subject, I can only go from my own experience. Racism works both ways and I have met many people with a huge chip on their shoulder when it really isn't necessary, but the generation that have every right to be like that aren't.
My generation (30's) and younger are the ones that walk around with a chip on their shoulder and a lot believe they are owed something. Whilst I believe that there still is racism I don't thing that black people are hindered when it comes to education or getting jobs. Around the country there are areas where ethnic minority's choose to be segregated, surely this can not be a good thing but that is their choice which is sad. Kanye west is definitely unhinged. It would be so nice if we could all live in harmony but all the while there are racists from both sides there will always be friction.

KittyWindbag · 19/02/2016 06:20

OP you're not comparing like with like. You, even as the great granddaughter of a poor white farmer still experience privilege over the great granddaughter of a black slave and it's as simple as that. You may feel that the world is more balanced now and that racism is no longer a problem, but you're simply wrong. The inequalities foisted upon black people are still being revisited upon the generations post slavery through institutionalized racism and deep-rooted social deprivation.

I think Kanye West can be an utter turnip, but your eagerness to point out his use of the word 'coloured' whilst overlooking his valid points, seems to show that you need to check your privilege. Also, you don't get to decide what is offensive to black people. It's as simple as that. The best thing any white person can do to help beat racism is to stop talking so much about how we fit into the equation thus making it about us, and instead actually listen to what black people want to say on the matter.

Peyia · 19/02/2016 07:54

I don't recall the OP mentioning grandchildren so it must be my gumpf you're referring to Mistress?

That's a shame as I haven't disputed anything on the thread and I'm confused as to why my thoughts don't count?

Although I have read the thread linked by Fudge and have learnt I'm an apologist based on my style of debating. This is not true, it was never my intention for anyone to feel dismissed by me extending the discussion. I thought PP had already pointed out facts and raised awareness to the root of the problem. Was I to regurgitate what they said for it to be a discussion?

This thread has well and truly been shut down for me. I honestly wanted a discussion, even if it was someone constructively telling me why my thinking is naive.

I think I'm doing an ok job for my children. I'm educated and bought my first property by myself at 21. That's a bloody achievement where I come from. I'm not (don't not feel) being held back but accept some are. I feel privileged, especially when I go back home to the Caribbean.

I thought we all recognised the problem, what are we going to do about it? That's where I was trying to go with this. I have in-depth discussions with like minded people in person. On a forum I find discussion can go in circles if not broadened. I tried to do the same about the sexist train poster. No one engaged even though I gave examples of what they said was biased.

The OP was probably a troll, doesn't stop a reasoned discussion to continue but I will bow out.

Thanks for some of the very insightful posts earlier.

PosieReturningParker · 19/02/2016 08:29

Anyone that writes "I don't believe...." When writing about racism really needs to find facts so they can write FACTS and not beliefs.

Here's a fact:

In the UK in 2012 a black person would get 19% more prison time than a white person for THE SAME CRIME.

PosieReturningParker · 19/02/2016 08:39

MistressDeeCee You mean this thread?
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/2567481-To-be-gobsmacked-by-this-article?pg=1

The thing is, racism doesn't actually exist unless of course it is being explained to you by a white person. Whilst we here on MN will champion women's rights and feminism, I'm afraid that you expressing your blackness just isn't acceptable here. Your experiences of racism are meaningless, please could you try to be a radical feminist and come again? Thanks.

This is a very depressing post. I'm sorry this place feels like that to you, I'm sorry it is that place.

MatildaBeetham · 19/02/2016 08:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KierkegaardGroupie · 19/02/2016 16:30

I just want to say I think the duke is doing a lot better in turning out better informed people more likely to take a stand against racism. I am now in the,USA and the segregation is shocking. Recently two men broke into a woman's home whilst she was in ...she,had to hide in the cupboard and call 911. Anyway when the,story got posted on a local neighbourhood board quite a few people made comments relating to the fact of the criminals both being black. It wasn't technically racist but it was drawing attention to them being black as if to say.....look everyone...more evidence....it's the black males commiting crimes. I was,really surprised anyone would share that publicly. In the UK you would be shot down for that.

AdrenalineFudge · 19/02/2016 18:00

PosieReturningParker MatildaBeetham

I was being deliberately facetious in that post because it seems to me at times that posters are wilfully ignorant. In the main, if I really thought that MN was a hotbed of racism I'd have deleted my account and just left you all to it. There are and there have been very interesting and informative discussion about race on here, one that particularly stands out was the discussion on black women's stance on feminism.

My gripe isn't that people will and do have different opinions to me, I'm not hellbent on making everyone sing from my hymn sheet, but I tend to think a lot of posters are just missing the point entirely. Even the OP - when I initially read the OP's post I was half bemused and half thinking WTF that someone managed to take the experiences of a black man and his feelings about his heritage and turn it into a 'white' issue. The OP feels that it's not fair that white people aren't afforded the same 'privilege' as black people in the use of race terminology.

I've said a couple of times on this thread that I think Kanye is twatishness personified but the points he raises are important. It's really quite an odd thing because Kanye is raising important issues but doing so in a way as to make people think he's totally lost it and therefore not take anything he says seriously. I honestly don't know whether he is supporting or hindering the cause.

Just off the top of my head, when I say wilful ignorance, I refer to for example a post I made a few pages back about the necessity that people with Kanye's status i.e global reach raise these points because the average black man on the street can't reach such an audience. The response to my post from someone who clearly didn't miss a beat was this: "Global? Lol, hardly. He's not that big!"

Even the thread I linked to after MistressDC's post - that thread was already framed in a dismissive manner. That poster had read an article about black women's struggles with MH and just dismissed them off-hand because it's just what everyone goes through and as she once lived abroad and wrote a dissertation about it then the article in her opinion was just typical Guardian babble; despite myself and a few others telling her about the 'angry black woman' stereotype and why whilst she may think this is just normal getting on in the workplace, a black woman would feel a great deal more anxiety from the start trying to knock that stereotype out of the water and be disassociated from it.

I think it's necessary and interesting to have these discussions and not all black people will feel the same. I wouldn't think a black person having different views to me is somehow 'letting down the side' or whatever. I do now tend to avoid these types of threads that discuss racism because personally I'd rather just not get so involved and stick to the lighter sort threads about MILs and ostentatious hen/stag dos Grin.

I don't think white people need to apologise or feel guilt when they engage in these discussions. It's not worthwhile and imo it can come across as being condescending i.e. 'sorry for your experiences of racism, it's just so awful' and then they get to go back to their lives which are otherwise unhindered by racism. I also would be interested in talking about racism against white people - it's not just a one-way street.

PittedOlive · 19/02/2016 18:40

I don't thing that black people are hindered when it comes to education or getting jobs.

You may think it, but the statistics disagree:

www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jan/30/ethnic-minority-graduates-earn-less-struggle-to-build-careers

Ethnic minority graduates in Britain are much less likely to be employed than their white peers six months after graduation – and many can expect to earn less for years afterwards.

This dramatic divergence in life chances is revealed in a major study – the first comparison of how university choices, parental background and social class can affect students’ chances of finding jobs and fulfilling their earnings potential.

The study, by the Institute for Social and Economic Research at the University of Essex, finds that British ethnic minority graduates are between 5% and 15% less likely to be employed than their white British peers six months after graduation. There are also marked disparities in wages between many ethnic minority women and black Caribbean men who do manage to find jobs after graduation and their white counterparts.

It is a gulf that persists long after graduation, according to the study. It found that, three-and-a-half years after they left university, the difference between earnings for ethnic minorities, especially women, and their white peers increases, suggesting they may be finding it harder to climb the career ladder.

The study examined data from the Destination of Leavers of Higher Education survey, conducted by the Higher Education Statistics Agency, and found that ethnic minority graduates were less likely to be employed than white British graduates from similar socioeconomic backgrounds who grew up with similar opportunities and had similar qualifications.

The findings raise troubling questions because most ethnic minority groups in Britain are highly educated on average and are more likely to attend university than white Britons. However, they struggle to build careers. It is a concern recognised by Karen Blackett, the chair of media agency MediaCom, who graduated from Portsmouth University and in 2014 became the first woman to top the Powerlist 100 of most influential black Britons. “Stats show that one in four kids at primary schools are from a black and minority ethnic population, yet only one in eight go into employment,” she told the Daily Telegraph in 2014. “Something has to be done. That’s not right.”

The study’s authors, Wouter Zwysen and Simonetta Longhi, say the inability of ethnic minority graduates to find jobs after graduation will have serious consequences for their earnings potential later in life.

According to their research, students who are unemployed following graduation can expect to earn between 20% and 25% less later in life than those who find jobs after leaving university.

PosieReturningParker · 19/02/2016 20:10

Fudge Gosh, I hope it didn't sound like I thought you were a pathetic martyr!!

I am always quite aghast when I see people who spew opinions like there's no racism anymore.... I feel quite embarrassed. I'm white and so have never EVER felt like my colour was an issue, I think it's really difficult to imagine life any other way.

SmillasSenseOfSnow · 19/02/2016 20:21

This is the reason why I tried to broaden the discussion by using the class system as an example. Not to dismiss slavery but to draw in others to talk about their experience of prejudice.

Because god forbid we expect white people to be able engage in a conversation about black people unless they get to mostly spend it relating the issues back to their own perceived problems...

Seriously, this kind of shit is ridiculous, and I get why some people would end up seeing it as the only way to get any non-aggressive, non-defensive engagement from white people. But it all seems an awful lot like e.g. tailoring a lesson about Romeo and Juliet to uninterested, ignorant teenagers by not expecting them to bother reading or thinking about the play. No-one's getting a passing grade in their GCSE that way...

SmallBee · 19/02/2016 21:09

My grandma is Jamaican but looking at me you wouldn't know. I look white and am treated as such. At most I've been told 'you look at bit foreign, are you Italian/Turkish /other? ' my sibling has darker skin and was bullied in secondary school but not excessively and (possibly due to our Irish names) hasn't experienced it since. I'm telling you this because I have absolutely no experience of racism in the UK. We live in a predominantly white area and I don't know any black people well enough to openly and frankly discuss racism with them.

Most of the discussions of racism in the media and by celebrities I see relates to USA experiences. I appreciate this is because it is more prevalent there.
What I would like to know is not how does the UK compare, because I don't accept that 'not as bad as the USA' is an acceptable standard. Nor do I accept comparison to any other country, we shouldn't be better than some, or most and be happy with that. We should keep working until there is nothing left to do.

What I'd, very politely, like to ask is how do black people feel the UK handles racism? How does it limit you and how hard to do have to battle every day?
What can I do as a white woman living in a very white area to improve myself and teach my children to be better?

PosieReturningParker · 19/02/2016 22:37

My light skinned friend whose GF is Jamaican was sat in her friends car, the friend was startled and said " oh my god I thought there was a big black man in the back seat". Not about my friend, but just that the most frightening thing was a big black man.... She didn't even understand why my friend was offended.

Swipe left for the next trending thread