confusion over race terms

[Musicmay]

So white people get accused of being racist if they call black people "coloured" including the older generations who mean no harm and white people are absolutly racist if they even think about saying anything about a race as a group... I give you Kanye west. Any thoughts on this?

People of colour is an American term. there is mass poverty and still segregation in the US where opportunity isnt there Pains me to say because its Kanye I agree with what he is saying

Unfortunately not really! A search of race related posts on Mumsnet or the comment section on the vast majority race related articles/discussions proves, quite easily, my point. End of page 1 and start of page 2 in this discussion are also examples! Not sure where you have managed to find offence in a race related post featuring some rather offensive/racist veiws!

Fauc. Your work sounds very interesting.

You should consider doing a guest post X

Genuine question, is Kanye mentally ill? Is it known or are you suggesting it because of his actions?

The ramifications of Slavery are not just going to go away. However I feel as a society we have come far. This topic is always emotive. Thank you to those that posted snippets to educate. I really hope discussion can continue without it descending like another thread I followed. Was shocked at the lack of action by MN. Yet calling somone a goady fucker is inexcusable

I do believe there are predujice in many societies, not just colour but class. An example is India's cast system, which reflect a class system but I understand it is a shade thing
too.

I do think it's fair to say that many many white people celebrate and respect black culture and many others! I believe we should focus on the future without forgetting the past. It should never be forgotten or dismissed but no one is holding me back. Ever.

wow the ignorance (and complete lack of empathy) around MN never fails to depress me

OP, have you ever read a book about the race history in the US? the fact that as recently as the 60s this shit was going down?

knowing that if from the deep south your white friends grand father well might have abused your black grandfather

seriously THINK before fucking posting this SHIT

Kanye West is the same man who said that racism was a dated concept, so how can you take anything he says now seriously when it's such a massive contradiction?

He is not well in himself mentally, and the ideas and things he speaks of are all over the place.

Let's not forget vast numbers of Europeans were slaves during Roman times, and history shows us slavery was common throughout Africa long before the white men arrived to further exploit them.

BartholinsSister no idea what your point is? Are you belittling the influence of the slave trade on modern United States of America today?

No, I don't think anyone is claiming that Kanye West is Olaudah Equiano or Benjamin Zephaniah , but it's always alarming to encounter large swathes of people who think racism magically evaporated when Rosa Parks refused to give up her bus seat, or someone took down the last 'No blacks, no dogs, no Irish' from a Notting Hill boarding house.

I wonder what the overlap is with those who think feminism has succeeded and the pay gap, gender discrimination, gendered glass ceiling etc are figments of the imagination.

OP, google 'white privilege' and think about what it means.

In fact, read this, which updates elements of Peggy McLintosh's famous 'White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack' t this country in 2015:

www.contributoria.com/issue/2015-01/54549c815c2d0c0c1200004f/

... white privilege in 2015 UK means (but is not limited to) being able to 1) send your kids to school being sure their educational success will not be hindered by their skin colour, 2) drive a nice car or walk in a wealthy neighbourhood without being fearful of being stopped by, or followed by, police and 3) apply for jobs and go to interviews knowing that your race and surname will not limit your application and chances. But of course as McIntosh’s infamous essay has shown us there are many other ways this privilege manifests, for example, “17) I can criticise our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behaviour without being seen as a cultural outsider” - a point whose existence I can strongly vouch for.

And give some thought to why race relations might work differently in the UK and US.

My problem is that what is deemed to be acceptable or preferred language keeps changing and I always seem to be one step behind ;-/

Not at all,, MrsJarmin, but this Kanye fellow is suggesting white people cannot be descendants of slaves.

Like what, Gruffalosgrandma? I don't think that change in some racial groups' preferred self-designation is all that frequent. Some of what you perceive to be change may be national differences - the US is far more likely to use a phrase like 'people of colour', for instance, and the term 'coloured' has a different history there (the NAACP, National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People, has a long history of civil rights/anti-racist activism) - where the UK might use 'ethnic minority groups'.

Kanye is an idiot. Attention seeking..... And this sort of controversy is exactly what he wants.....attention attention attention

I saw a screening of the fantastic Shadeism film done by teenagers - it's on YouTube (in two parts)

part one is there for anyone interested.

OP, if you're still reading; I'd also recommend you watch the documentary 'Good Hair' by Chris Rock, it further explains Fauchelevent's points regarding the obsession with hair among the black community.

There was also a very good BBC documentary called 'Make Me White' which explores the market for cosmetics to lighten darker skin. This market is actually worth millions of pounds in the UK and even more internationally. The documentary explores the lengths darker skinned women will go to lighten their skin by using chemicals which are banned and often cancer-causing.

And also just google for example black models' experiences in the fashion industry. Jourdan Dunn, a very successful black British model, has said in many interviews that when she'd sometimes go for a show casting and didn't get the job it wasn't always a case of 'you win some, you lose some' which would be perfectly acceptable, she was actually told by casting directors that the reason she didn't get the job is because they've already reached their quota of 'ethnic' models so to come again next year.

I agree with Kanye - since racism and sexism are necessary to keep white men on top .

MumOnTheRunCatchingUp Yes, I very much agree that Kanye is attention seeking and a twat to boot. But he at the very least has the platform to express such critical views on a global scale to a global audience. An average black man on the street couldn't reach such an audience to express how ostracised he may feel from society. And if he dared speak up he'd be persecuted for playing the race card and so forth. Modern day racism is subtle and insidious (in some cases).

The points Kanye raises are important and need to be addressed. I don't agree with the way he's gone/going about it because he's actually overshadowing an important message and making himself look absolutely ridiculous simultaneously.

In fact, a lot of his peers in the rap community have said the same thing in their music and in interviews; for example Jay Z and Nas. What Kanye is saying is not new. I don't agree with his approach, but having said that, when others (rap artists) have alluded to it in the past it was over-looked. Now that Kanye has gone full throttle, a lot of people have noticed. Granted a lot of them just to say that he's mentally ill.

Gruffalosgrandma That again misses the point. Like CottonFrock says some of what you perceive to be change may be national differences. There was a thread not too long ago in which an OP had felt offended that a consultant doctor had used the term "Negroid ladies". That thread spanned over many pages with people arguing why she was and why she wasn't being unreasonable to feel offended.

The fact that the language used to describe black people is in flux should be a good thing as it shows development - at least in a minor way. I grew up in a time when my teachers would refer to me as 'half-caste' or 'half-baked' and thought nothing of it. These days the term is 'mixed race' or 'bi-racial'. If your one issue with is terminology then you've missed the point. My white mother was treated with suspicion for marrying and having children with a black man. People thought she'd been brain-washed, had a fetish or was just down right stupid. My father was beaten up for 'stealing' a white woman, people used to tell him he'd flown too close to the sun. These things evolve. These days many people seem to think I'm 'exotic' for being from being two different places and looking different. To say that this whole issue is redundant because the terminology is to miss the wider point.

Global? Lol, hardly. He's not that big!

MumOnTheRunCatchingUp You've clearly caught the point of my post and grasped the salient points of it. Yes, "he's not that big!", indeed.

I think it is hard to compare the US and the UK. As has been pointed out, class is as much a barrier to success in the UK as race - it is working class white boys who are falling behind. Indentured work (aka slavery) was a feature of Scottish life for centuries. Many men and women were slaves in Scotland working in the coal mines until 1799. Their status as slaves was hereditary being passed on to their children. It is this that is a shameful blight on Scotland that continues its legacy to this day in the system of land ownership. In the UK, being a slave did not mean being black and the children of these slaves continue to have poorer life outcomes.

Again it's interesting that white people often steer the conversation on race relations in the UK.

Where does this 'hard to compare' rhetoric come from?

I have not known the black middle class experience to differ much from the black working class experience in UK race relations.

Whitesplaining.... Whitewashing

I have seldom seen white people asking black people on their experiences. I do however constantly see white people telling black people how they should look at things, how they should react to things, how they perceive racism, where racism occurs, how racism occurs and what racism basically is!

I think white people should explore amongst themselves why that is?

www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html?clear%3Fir=Black+Voices&section=us_black-voices&utm_hp_ref=black-voices&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000047

First message is reasonable.
As for the second- yes, coloured is racist. The fact that a black person said it doesn't make it ok. Individual black people don't get to decide what is and isn't racist

DesignEye I took the discussion to be about slavery as much as racism, so my post talked about the slavery in my recent heritage and its negative influence continuing through the generations. I find it hard to compare with slavery in the US because I am not black and that is not my heritage.