confusion over race terms

[Musicmay]

So white people get accused of being racist if they call black people "coloured" including the older generations who mean no harm and white people are absolutly racist if they even think about saying anything about a race as a group... I give you Kanye west. Any thoughts on this?

Kierk it is very difficult to unpick the factors. In ALL western countries, low literacy, poverty, unemployment, and family instability are predictors of a higher likelihood of being convicted of a crime.

I can't find it now so I might have been imagining it but I thought that someone posted about black children in schools doing worst due to racism.
I think all the latest studies have indicated that it's white working class boys.
I am not fond of continual hectoring for links but there are lots of 'facts' about crime, schooling etc which would be more useful if some links to recent research is given. I know that all stats can be twisted but it makes it less of an opinion and a bit more meaningful.

blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime/19439

White working class boys (and girls) in the UK get a dreadful deal, it's true.

It's really not possible to conflate the experiences on either side of the Atlantic though (beyond some broad generalities about poverty).

The legacy of slavery (as referenced by Kanye and OP) is a particularly American phenom.

I agree, from what I can gather it is a much bigger problem there.

The picture we have of the USA, through TV, movies, and music, is that races are integrated and live alongside each other as they do in most of the UK, bring friends, lovers, working together etc. However that is far from the truth, there are generally white areas and generally black areas in the USA, on the whole. It was shockingly obvious when I visited memphis and nashville a few years ago. Races do not mix half as much as the media illusion tries to show, and this lack of integration perpetuates inequality in terms of poverty, crime, success to education etc. White privilege is real and OP you need to read up on it.

Some interesting points here.

Will read on.

here's a map that illustrates my point This is why these specific problems around katrina and the current one about water contamination are so pertinent, as they are predominantly black areas.

OP, have a google for Jane Elliott and her blue eyes-brown eyes exercise. Just just the very early one, with grade 3 kids (although that's v interesting), but her later ones, done in college with young adults. It's fascinating and gives a real insight how it is to be labelled because of a physical feature.

One thing that rarely gets mentioned when discussing the impact of slavery is the impact on the areas of origin and how taking the strong, young generation away broke communities and massively compromised the development of the continent.

Arguably, despite the many social disadvantages experienced by the African American population and other black communities outside Africa, the average level of wealth and opportunity is more than likely higher than that of the average African. I don't know if there are estimates of how different Africa would be if slavery had never happened?

What an interesting - and sobering - point Mangoes.

To me, this just proves that no matter how much the people in charge try to turn the UK into mini-America, there are some large and marked differences.

I for one didn't mention black kids doing worse in school however I'll rephrase what I did say. The idea that black people commit more crimes is cemented in jokes and films and general conversation. If a Black kid gets treated badly by police there are responses of "maybe blacks shouldnt commit so much crime"

Yet in your link and mine below, all we can see is that black people get arrested and convicted more. Why is that? Black people are just inclined to crime? Systemic factors intersect to make crime more likely amongst Black people? Inequality in the criminal justice system? A combination of factors?

On an experiential level you can speak to plenty of Black people who are innocent and get testimonies of how they are treated as criminals or misbehavers in ways their non-Black peers are not.

Where does this come from? Can you securely say this does not, in any way, stem from the criminalisation of black people that occured after emancipation? When innocent black people are labeled as thugs, where does this come from and does this stereotyping not have an impact on how the criminal justice system tries black people today?

I think it's really reductive to look at the situation of black people and say conclusively that it is solely a result of our own doings. Even amongst black people you can hear people say "black people are quick to blame everyone else but ourselves" and whilst I would never say no black person has ever done anything wrong, we are all faultless as a race, do not accuse any individual black person of anything, It's true that systemic oppression is real, it stems from colonialism and slavery and has a very real impact on the lives of black people today to an extent where it IS more difficult for middle class, achieving, non-criminal black people to succeed.

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/black-crime-rates-your-st_b_8078586.html

I just don't get how the struggles ancestors went through directly affect the lives of black people these days. If you can tell me.I will gladly.listen.

Seriously?
I find that hard to believe.

I also don't want to minimise OPs family history but it's quite... odd to compare the extreme poverty of your individiual family to the transatlantic slave trade

Which affected I don't even know how many families, over centuries, across generations, across multiple countries. Which then didn't just end happily but carried on as segregation for many many decades. Segregation era many of our parents if not MNers themselves were around in that time, and would pro-seg grandpa in mississippi's attitude change after a law change? I doubt it.

Just feel like the comparison is me saying to a victim of Katrina "I know how you feel, my washing machine flooded and it was a nightmare."

I get that like absolute poverty is very serious but it's individualised, and what occured in your family has not shaped an entire society's perspective.

(Sorry for incoherence, running on zero sleep!)

correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe that the ancestry of black people today also does not directly affect the lives of their great grandchildren

Well for a start, they live on another continent from that they would have done if not forcibly removed. And they are heavily financially disadvantaged by the fact that their forebears were first, owned as property themselves, then when freed (with nothing), barred from owning many types of business and property or holding decent jobs (until very recently, within living memory) and only allowed to do the most menial low paid jobs or run businesses serving the poorest people (other black people) which means that there is still a large financial imbalance between communities in the U.S.

In a country where education after high school is very expensive this has led to other imbalances such as big differences in the standard of education available and hence chances of a successful life. That's just off the top of my head.

Plus you can define yourself how you like without wanting others to do the same. For example lots of people call themselves fat, but would be very hurt if their coworkers or strangers started referring to them as 'the fat woman'.

Besides, Kanye is showing all the signs of being quite seriously mentally ill, so I don't think he is much of a good example at the moment. One of his long time song writing collaborators quit last week saying that he was worried about Kanye's mental health, thought he was ill and needed medical treatment.

And given the farm example. Well that's an example of inequality due to class. And incase you hadn't noticed, there have been quite a few political movements dedicated to fixing that inequality also. HTH.

Fantastic posts by fauchelevent.

I hate Kanye, but I do agree with those tweets.

He needs to stop hounding Taylor Swift though, its horrible.

Oh shit.

You know your thinking about this is way off and shows your prejudice and ignorance about race issues?

No matter what you think you are white and so whether you like or accept it you have privilege over black people.

I can think of my relatives hoping the newborn girl babies are lightskinned with loose curls. Stemming from the "house negro" of being fair enough to work in the house of your enslaver not the fields which is STILL a beauty standard today. How many dark skinned famous black people can you name in comparison to lighterskinned ones?

I did not know this. Christ, can you imagine?

Great post by Fauchelevent. A new book I'd recommend is Between the World and Me by Ta-Nehisi Coates

fauchelevent wrote

It tends to doesn't it. You can explain until your blue in the face but the majority of people are invested in the belief that racism is over. Until someone says the word "white". Then racism is real and just as bad as whatever brown people are always banging on about.*

And always in America and always applicable to anything other than racism! By page two, in a race discussion on Mumsnet, or in any race discussion frequented by white people, you'd believe racism didn't even exist!

It's amazing how white people by and large steer the conversation of racism, what it is, how its experienced, and where its experienced.

I hate the comparison but would the same be said to Jews.

I think a lot more people have an inkling of their white privilege and subconscious /conscious racist attitudes than they would like to admit, and the rush to explain away societies massive race issues or point out how bad it is elsewhere, highlights white fragility perfectly!

Posie pretty much. We had a succession of mixed race baby girls be born in the family and with each one older female relatives would lament any sign of their hair getting any curlier or their skin getting any darker. I have really made it my mission to unapologetically love my skin which is much darker than theirs and my hair which is much curlier, in order to let them know they are beautiful just as they are.

It's really not uncommon. I have periods of wearing my hair in an afro which takes hours per day of maintainance. But older black women on buses tut at me and tell me to "do my hair" because afros, no matter how much grooming goes into it are just not seen as presentable as hairstyles that emulate straight hair. These women know how difficult afro maintenance is and that I clearly did my hair, but I'm causing shame by not emulating straight hair in some way. Luckily amongst younger generations of black women that view is changing.

I also did a thesis on this and interviewed a range of black girls and women and despite the diverse mix of cultures, backgrounds and ages each woman reported similar. Their families were pro-Black community, you know, supporting the local black grocery store, black backed film and so on... but colourism/shadeism was still a major issue.

Quite a few sweeping generalisations in that post DesignEye?