confusion over race terms

[Musicmay]

So white people get accused of being racist if they call black people "coloured" including the older generations who mean no harm and white people are absolutly racist if they even think about saying anything about a race as a group... I give you Kanye west. Any thoughts on this?

Do people really think that it's white people steering this conversation? How do you know the colour of the posters?
Do you think that continually saying this is putting white people off joining in or do you not want white people to join in?

DesignEye. You are not really doing a very good job of convincing us only white people are racist.

whattheseithakasmean you opened your post with.....

I think it is hard to compare the US and the UK. As has been pointed out, class is as much a barrier to success in the UK as race...

I'm simply stating that you have nothing to base these ASSUMPTIONS on.

Your main point seems to be that YOUR historical experiences have some place in why UK based racism towards black people doesn't basically occur as it does in America. But this point, which is ALWAYS bought up during conversations on race, does nothing other than try and explain YOUR position and how YOU would like to view modern day racism and it's effects.....

As I said earlier.... I do however constantly see white people telling black people how they should look at things, how they should react to things, how they perceive racism, where racism occurs, how racism occurs and what racism basically is!

... It is this that is a shameful blight on Scotland that continues its legacy to this day in the system of land ownership. In the UK, being a slave did not mean being black and the children of these slaves continue to have poorer life outcomes..... has to do with THIS discussion, and the very real racism experienced by black people in the UK, how?

I just don't get how the struggles ancestors went through directly affect the lives of black people these days.
Where to start? Luckily other people have started - including Billy's comment about being on a different continent. Being at the bottom of the heap because history slung your forebears down there and it's bloody hard to haul yourself up out of it (it's hard enough when you're white, and have the option of looking like European aristocracy).

There definitely still is racism around. Maybe ten years ago we were gearing up to go and meet a friend with his new girlfriend. He rang us. 'By the way,' he said, 'she wants you to know that she's black.'
'??' said DH.
'I know,' said the friend. 'I know you won't give a damn. But she doesn't know you, and she was worried.'
So God only knows what racist nonsense that woman had faced in her life, to make her bothered about meeting her white boyfriend's friends. She's lovely, but she's very hesitant to talk about her past history so I've never pressed her, but clearly, racism is far from dead.

I think it's very easy for white or white-looking people to assume that racism has gone. My own family is a right mixture, and one of my white-looking cousins was talking to a less-white-looking member of the clan, and said she'd never seen active racism where they lived. 'Oh my God,' said the non-white looking cousin, 'you don't look like me. If you looked like me, you'd never say that.'

Dear God

HelpfulChap and Biscuitsinbed if only you knew how textbook you are!

You made a discussion on racism faced by marginalized communities about you and your fragility. Whilst not addressing the OP and actual racism.

How do you know the color of the posters? & You are not really doing a very good job of convincing us only white people are racist If I had a penny for every time these comments cropped up in conversations about race.

HelpfulChap please feel free to tell me where I have made a racist point?

Biscuitsinbed do I really have to answer your question? Any 'black' or even 'white' posters, please feel free to tell me if I have mistaken your ethnicity.

You can both come on a thread about race and skip past a post such as Fauchelevent Wed 17-Feb-16 03:32:02 but address an issue as trivial as me highlighting the lack of respect black people get on their OWN experiences of race.

Again, this says more about you and your fragility/protectionism of your viewpoint/identity on racism than it does about the reasons you are on this thread in the first place.

www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html?clear%3Fir=Black+Voices§ion=us_black-voices&utm_hp_ref=black-voices&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000047

www.huffingtonpost.com/john-metta/i-racist_b_7770652.html

renieddolodge.co.uk/?p=951

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/reverse-racism-isnt-a-thing_us_55d60a91e4b07addcb45da97

Some great reads.

Ignorance can not be your excuse when you have been given the opportunity to educate yourself! There comes a point when you chose not too and for a black person like me, I would attribute you not doing so to you enjoying your white privilege and thus being happy to maintain a racist society.

Are you?

Wow design that's a lot of sweeping assumptions. I agree, having seen your last post that you are a racist and your agenda is nothing to do with educating anyone.

And I didn't ignore any points, I introduced the aspect of class in response to a post, which you ignored. I linked to a well respected study while you continually link to huff post articles.
You know nothing about me, who I am married to or the colour of my children.
You clearly don't want a discussion, rather than to assert your (supposed) moral superiority over 'whites'.
This is why a lot of people won't post on this thread.

So more sweeping generalisations then?

And lastly (as this thread has unfortunately descended in not a very good way). I have not seen one person deny that racism exists, not one on this thread.
It's a shame as I enjoy picking apart crime statistics etc and what has influenced them, same with schooling. Not interested in being told to read huff post articles and 'educate myself'.

This is the reason why I tried to broaden the discussion by using the class system as an example. Not to dismiss slavery but to draw in others to talk about their experience of prejudice. I'd hate for this thread to descend into tit for tat. It gets embarrassing, no one is better than anyone else. It's not about forgetting the past but what do we, as a society, want to achieve? Let's start by being inclusive and accepting of one another?

I often find that people from my fellow race let me down, my dad being a prime example and it's a culture thing. Spreading the seed, having no responsibility. I think it's a poisonous cycle (which I accept stems from the struggle of over coming slavery, not having basic rights etc.) but it's us as individuals (black, white, orange and blue) to change it. Not lambast others for our individual struggles and not understanding. If I come across those people I breeze past them, why would I waste my energy on them? They are lost souls.

No one is denying it, please don't misunderstand me, holding onto anger does not get anyone far.

Racism does exist. Who can change it? I really don't know but we as a society have come along way in recent years. That's not me being grateful by the way, as everyone should be on a level playing field. Just trying to focus on the positive. I have amazing black history books to teach my bi-racial children of their ancestors as I doubt there will be much in school. Am I mad, why waste my energy when I can control what they learn. Holding onto anger is not good.

I haven't read everyone's posts on this thread but in Design's, and my, and a lot of people's experience, every effort is takeb to explain away racism in a lot of situations. Read any comment section on an article or blog about racism. It shouldn't be a "sources needed" situation - although it hasn't happened on here which is a good thing, it's the reality of many people who mention racism now.

Design could have said "some" before any of her statements but adding some isn't necessary. It's that age old "not all men" thing. When I say "men pee standing up" I am aware that not ALL men pee standing up. By modifying a statement about racist behaviour with "some" it allows readers to discount ANY possibility that they participate in the behaviour, that they might need to check the ways in which they are complicit. By calling things generalisations and asking people to say "some white people on some threads in some circumstances..." I think IS asking for people to coddle your feelings so you don't feel hurt by the mere suggestion that you might have done something racist. Which lets be honest, everyone has. No one "does not have a racist bone in their body".

Biscuits I am interested in what your actual thoughts are. You linked to a channel four report (which in my book really isn't vastly different to a huff post article using statistics...) and have said Design is racist but I'm just not sure what your point actually is? And I don't mean that aggressively. Is it that race and class intersect to make crime more likely in black communities? I would say it's a fair point but I do think that systematic oppression is also a factor which cannot be ignored

I linked to a recent report from the human and equality and rights commission, I honestly don't see how that can be compared in any way to the huff post articles which when I quickly glanced over them had nothing other than opinion and personal experience in them. Valid but in a completely different way.

It's the sheer aggression that has developed in this thread and the arrogant 'go educate yourselves' with multiple exclamation marks.

It's not going to achieve anything and I am not interested in continuing on the thread in that fashion.

This

Fail...

Faunch you articulate your posts very well. I really enjoyed reading the others but I'm sorry I disagree with your last comment.

If I heard a white person say black people have a chip on their shoulder I would be fuming. Actually let's rewind, why can't we just take the colour out of the sentence. To me it looks like we have to continue the segregation to justify the innate racism. Saying white people don't understand does not sit well with me. Some white people (even some black people!) don't understand the struggle. I say this as a black woman who's mother comes from mixed heritage. My partner is not the same race as me too. I just want peace and love!

Educateing people is great, but to say they don't understand seems hypocritical. They might not know what's it like to judges by the colour of their skin, to be held back but does that mean they can't show empathy? What if their grandparent was black, it's not right to make a generalised statement and it weakens the argument. To say whites, Indians, Chinese, blacks just compound the issues we have as a society. It will die out eventually if we refer to one another as people, and that's not me saying our individual heritage should be ignored.

Peyia I'm not quite sure what you mean or what you disagree with? I don't disagree that life is beautiful and peace and love is beautiful. My partner is also a different race to me.

I think white people CAN empathise, but it's a complex issue isn't it. Racism is taught as spontaneous bullying boogeymen and there are only very few racists. But that's not true really is it, racism is multi-faceted and takes myriad forms and goes beyond black and white. It can be innocuous and not intentionally harmful but still plays into racist systems.

But I never said white people can't show empathy nor did I even say they don't understand. I just think it's something we should be more honest about - that it's real and we can all be complicit because of how our society is formed. Therefore, it's a process of learning and unlearning and working to deconstruct oppressive structures. And that won't happen in my lifetime but it's beginning to happen and that gives me hope.

My apologies for not reading the entire thread but I don't think it is helpful to attempt a direct comparison between the USA and the UK. The two nations have very different histories. Slavery in the USA emerged to be race based before the USA was a nation and lasted I think at least 300 years. Initially the English speaking colonies had indentured servitude where people worked a contract for seven years and then were free to buy their own land. When African people were first brought to the colonies this system was also followed but gradually changed to become permanent enslavement based on race.

Laws had to be introduced and changed according to race. For example a man always inherited from his father but laws were introduced where if your mother was enslaved you remained enslaved regardless of who your father was.

People from Africa had their identity and family removed - people were constantly separated from their other enslaved relatives. It was illegal to teach an enslaved person to read and write and they were not allowed to travel without permission and papers from their enslavers. Therefore people were dehumanized over many, many generations.

Many people are intrigued by their family history and love to trace their family roots back over the centuries. For people with enslaved ancestors that is virtually impossible.

Let us not forget that Africans were often imported to replace the indigenous peoples who had been enslaved and exterminated in many parts of the Americas. So all non white people were in danger of being enslaved at various times in the history of the USA.

The UK was deeply invested in the slave trade but the actual enslavement was off shore and out of sight. No large numbers of people from the African diaspora arrived in the UK until the 1950s onward into a democratic society, usually with their family members. Therefore the two histories are vastly different. In the USA slavery was systemic to the point of it being written into the constitution and in many Southern States the enslaved outnumbered the free of all colors by a wide margin.

It was your second paragraph I was referring to Fauch. I should have been more clear but I disagree that it is ok to drop the 'some' when making a statement about a group of people. I disagree with this for the reasons outlined in my previous post. I feel it compounds the issue of segregation.

I've witnessed my white husband experience racism from black people, I know how it feels and so does he. It's offensive to suggest otherwise to him.

I am not wanting to dismiss what you have said/experienced. It's wonderful reading your posts, you do articulate them well. Maybe my disagreement should have been directed elsewhere on the thread but I'm a diplomat and hate confrontation! You seemed like a safer bet to have a discussion with.

Thanks for sharing Francis, great post.

Omg. I think I've just seen someone refer to reverse racism..... In 2016!!!

Jesus Christ. Read a book on privilege.

Individuals can suffer prejudice abuse, I've certainly had racially motivated abuse from Asian men.... But I cannot suffer from racism as a rule because I'm white. Just like a man can't suffer sexism. It's all about power.

*Omg. I think I've just seen someone refer to reverse racism..... In 2016!!!

Jesus Christ. Read a book on privilege.

Individuals can suffer prejudice abuse, I've certainly had racially motivated abuse from Asian men.... But I cannot suffer from racism as a rule because I'm white. Just like a man can't suffer sexism. It's all about power.*

Yes, I'm astonished anyone is still bleating about reverse racism. Surely the most cursory thought makes the difference between prejudice and racism clear?

Can you please expand Posie?

I'm interested in your thoughts as I'm unclear who you are directing your post at.

Thanks Pitted.... I did provide some reading for those feeling 'offended' but they didn't want to do the research for themselves. Outside of reassuring them that I am in fact racist for pointing out thier white privilege, I'm not sure what else I can do.

As a black person I absolutely have more experience of racism. Anyone with any understanding on the topic would agree. As a 'victim' it is not my place to stroke the sensitivities of the privileged.

I have been accused of making assumptions and racist statements. I am confident that any offence I might have caused is to do with pointing out a privilege to those who are more invested in the idea that they don't have one.

I never understand why we have a forum filled with women, who by and large fight for women's rights and point out 'mansplaining' over and over, but do EXACTLY the same thing when it comes to issues of race.

There is so much energy invested in trying to undermine, explain elsewhere, or provide historical accounts of how Africans enslaved Africans before the Europeans over trying to understand what I am saying, with the the 'opinion' I have provided.

In an issue such as this, opinion is absolutely valid. Opinion coincides with my experience which is why I have provided it.

I have no time for passive aggressive remarks and trying to undermine someone's contributions because of the format in which they have presented them. Exclamation marks included! biscuit it would be better for you to just stick to the point u were trying to make.... If you would care to actually read the items I have taken the time to provided, you'd understand my perspective, experience, opinion and why your comments skim over the surface of what actually being spoken about here.

Your comments are absolutely text book!

Peyia having a look at the articles I posted above would be useful to you too.

I think an important part of this conversation is understanding what racism actually is un accordance with the impact it has on it's victims.

I'm always scared to venture into posts like this because they can become so heated and messy, and I definitely have no authority to comment on the situation in the US.
Whilst there has been progress in the UK I do feel there is still a large issue of racism (and sex/classism) in the general population. I am a white woman and I see and hear it regularly; I have been in situations where because of what I am, I am somehow expected to join in or feel the same as others, particularly those of an older generation. It is repulsive and I speak up against it.
I can hand on my heart say I don't give a toss what colour anyone is, I judge people for who they are not their colour or background, and I dearly wish everyone was this way. I've struggled against and seen prejudice to race, sex and class, but other than not being one of those people I don't know how else we can change this.
I think the best thing humanity can do is learn from the past and teach our children better