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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Should I tell DS off for punching someone and being excluded?

130 replies

HolsW · 10/02/2016 06:24

I haven't and I'm wondering if IBU...

I have breast cancer, not very advanced and responding well to treatment.

DS was invited to a friend's birthday party, he is relatively new to the school and DS's group of friends took him under their wings. The problem was, it was at the same time that my chemo appointment was at (DS usually comes with me - he always wants to come, we play games and have a good laugh) I told him to go and I'll be fine, but he insisted he would rather be with me. He messaged the friend (I'll call him J) and got the response of 'K', DS thought it must just be the way he answers and he isn't mad (as 'K' normally means you are...?) anyway, DS goes into school the next day and thought nothing about not going to the party.

Forgot to say, DS is 12 (Yr 8)... J then goes up to DS and says "I hope your mum hurries up and dies, so you don't keep missing things you're invited to, it's rude" and he punched him right in the face.

DS then hurried to the toilets and phoned me in a massive frenzy (he never normally gets into trouble/does 'naughty' things at school) telling me how sorry he is and he didn't mean it, but he is going to be in lots of trouble, etc.

DS got a day exclusion and as soon as he got home, said he shouldn't have done it and he knew it was a bad choice, etc. so I figured he knew he did something wrong, he never gets into trouble at school, etc.

However, ExH (who he sees 3 times a week) says that I handled it wrong and he won't be doing anything fun when he has him/have any of his gadgets, etc.

So, WIBU? Confused

OP posts:
TreadSoftlyOnMyDreams · 10/02/2016 12:07

You do need to consider the fact that your son has been excluded and the other child has not. In his eyes he probably thinks he has won/gotten away with it and may become a goady little fuck to your son.

Your son needs to think of a few verbal put downs and how he is going to deal with any further trouble from that quarter, with assistance from the school/you if needs be.

msrisotto · 10/02/2016 12:13

What that boy said was absolutely unspeakable and i'm surprised the school aren't excluding him tbh. I wonder what 'dealing with it' actually means?

IguanaTail · 10/02/2016 14:49

Dealing with it means talking to him about the consequences of making appalling comments like that to people. It means informing his parents to make them aware so they can also ensure there are consequences. It means setting a sanction for him in school. Just because there is not an exclusion doesn't mean it has not been dealt with.

Namechange02 · 10/02/2016 15:04

YANBU. It is a pity that the school has not taken a common sense view on this, it was not "normal" provocation.

I'm not sure what purpose exclusion serves - it robs the pupil of a day's education and really just seems to be about punishing the parents by inconveniencing them. I think you've had enough punishment! You can appeal the exclusion. Obviously he can't get the day back in school but the governors might rescind it and the headteacher might think again in future. I know of a similar case where someone's sister who had special needs was insulted and the boy punched the kids involved and was excluded. The school actually said they were sympathetic but had to follow their policy. Well the policy needs to have some room for discretion in my view. Of course violence is wrong but kids are put in situations in school that they would never experience in "real life" and sometimes common sense has to prevail.

amarmai · 10/02/2016 15:19

op, you have brought up a lovely son. I hope the school is aware of your sit and that you will benefit from treatment and get well. No your son shd not be punished.

Nataleejah · 10/02/2016 15:27

Whoa! I'd punch someone in the face too if they talked like this. Of course don't tell him off.

LokiDokey · 10/02/2016 15:29

TBH if I were the parent of the boy smacked in the face my response would be 'Serves you right'.

I wouldn't punish at all and as others have said I'd be questioning your Ds's punishment with the school. That said, if I were the parent of the punched child I'd probably be dragging him to your front door with flowers and an apology for the both of you.

Blu · 10/02/2016 15:37

The question is, how do you persuade your ex to take the same line .
If you asked him what he would have done, aged 12, had someone said that about HIS mum, what would he say?

I would emphasise that your DS has already addressed it in his own conscience, and endured exclusion by school - which is a v serious sanction.

Would he respond if you asked him to give DS the skills to deal with obnoxious people without resorting to violence?

Namechangenell · 10/02/2016 17:43

Of course you don't need to tell him off, Op. Flowers for you and hope your treatment is going well.

I am appalled at the number of posts above that highlight that bullies have used parents with cancer/illness as reasons to attack other children. Just how low can you go? If I were the parent of the child who spoke to your DS like that, he wouldn't know what had hit him. Nasty little brat.

kinkytoes · 10/02/2016 22:06

I disagree with those who say his reaction is a result of 'not coping' with your dx. I think however well you're coping with something like this, your reaction would likely be the same.

RubbleBubble00 · 10/02/2016 22:25

I don't think he needs further punishment. I do think his own counsellor would be a good idea. He's not going to share his worries with you and his dad doesn't sound the best. He could be coming to treatment with u because he's is very scared of losing u and feel he is the only one who can support u.

IguanaTail · 10/02/2016 23:01

The thing is, if their policy is that they exclude students when they punch, and they made an exception in this case, it means that in fact the policy is that students are allowed to punch each other as long as the headteacher deems the provocation to have been serious enough.

This then requires the level of provocation to be judged every time to ascertain whether or not it was extreme, from the point of view of the school as outsiders.

How about another child that calls a child "four eyes" because he wears glasses. That might be considered provocative but is it extreme? Not as bad as the OP's son's "friend" but what if it was the 25th insult that week? What if the boy in question had never said anything unkind, but said this for the first time under his breath, and it happened to be the 25th comment the other had heard? Our boy punches him in the face but declares he was provoked. Not necessarily just by him, but provoked nonetheless. And if it was repeated you could say it was extreme as it built up his anger. So if you decided that he was provoked and therefore should not be punished you would then be in a position whereby the other parent tells you they have spent an evening down at A and E with their child and his broken nose, and asking you why a "violent bulky" is allowed in school. No no, you respond, in fact your son made a comment which was provocative. "Four eyes? Under his breath? Once?"

How about the cuss "yer mum!" Said to most boys it generates an angry response. What if that boy's mum was very ill or had died, but the aggressor didn't know. He shouts it in an argument and the boy loses his temper and punches him. He says he was provoked. But the boy saying "yer mum!" didn't know that what he was saying would be received so badly because he wasn't aware of the history. It's extreme provocation from the point of view of the child hearing it, but not as intentional. Or how about he did know, but he was lying?

How about the boy who comes into school after 3 hours' sleep, his parents rowing all night and a baby screaming. He's missed his bus, he's late, he's been told he has a breaktime detention and someone he doesn't like mouths at him to fuck off. He's in a foul temper so he lashes out. He says he was also seriously provoked. His mood was terrible so he felt it far more than usual, but he feels the provocation was huge and it was not his fault he had 3 hours' sleep. The attacked child's parents have to be called to take him home because he now has a nosebleed that won't stop. They insist that the "marauding bully" is put in a different class to their son. They say their son was just reading something to himself and never mouthed anything to anyone. They know their child best, they insist, and he never swears.

Now imagine you're 12. You hear people whispering about you, they are sniggering and giggling about you and you feel more and more upset and embarrassed. You hear a boy really falling about laughing and you punch him. You could argue that that was also extremely provocative - a whole group being nasty and humiliating you.

In all of these scenarios it could be argued that the child doing the punching was provoked. Some children for whatever reason may feel a comment more than others. A school has to have some lines over which they make a black and white rule, otherwise their entire day is spent dealing with shades of grey over situations rather than their core purpose - teaching and learning. If they believe that kids should never deal with situations with violence then their discipline code has to reflect this belief.

I have known kids excluded for a day for punching, who genuinely couldn't give a monkeys - parents probably teach them to fight physically whenever they feel wronged.
And I have known kids who are utterly mortified by themselves for having punched, for whom really no punishment is necessary but who accept nonetheless that the school has to respond, and take the punishment.

A school is not a court and teachers aren't police. They have a duty of care and a duty to discipline where necessary. They don't have to prove beyond reasonable doubt; they have to show that on the balance of probabilities it is more probable than improbable.

Schools do their best to accommodate a whole spectrum of moral compasses. It is not as easy as thinking that OP's son should be let off totally for these reasons, although it is totally understandable, given the perspective that we have here.

LeLeFox · 10/02/2016 23:13

YANBU, don't punish him more... I really feel for him and you, I hope you're holding up :)

I think he should keep coming to your treatment, if he likes it, why not!? You seem to have a great time x

QuietWhenReading · 10/02/2016 23:39

Igauna I don't think the OP's son should have been punished less I think the other boy should have been punished more.

nocoolnamesleft · 10/02/2016 23:42

Definitely punish him more. I'm thinking an enormous embarassing big squishy hug. Oh, and force him to eat pancakes? Does he like pancakes? If not, you could punish him by making him eat something else that he did like.

In the circumstance you describe, it would have been utterly astounding if he hadn't hit the other child. That does not make the hitting right. But it did make it pretty much inevitable with that provocation. Having an ill parent is very stressful for a child/young person, and it sounds like you have somehow, despite your tosser of an ex"d"h, managed to raise a decent kid. Which says something pretty awesome about you.

But...is the real reason that the other kid totally got hit that there's a tiny bit of your son that is actually worrying that you will die, and desperately trying not to think about it (and certainly won't want to raise it to you and make you feel worse), but this other kid brought that fear out front and central. I'm kind of wondering if he was as much hitting the cancer, as he was hitting the insensitive tosser.

What your ds needs most right now is love, not further punishment.

blondieblonde · 11/02/2016 00:46

No, don't punish him! He sounds like a lovely boy.

I would have punched the other kid too in those circs, and I've never punched anyone in my life.

Eh probably just finding it hard to deal with his own emotions on the topic.

Get well soon x

blondieblonde · 11/02/2016 00:47

Exh, I meant.

kawliga · 11/02/2016 02:15

maybe you need to have a word with your DS about how it isn't important not to flake out on people especially on important occasions like birthdays

Birthdays are not 'important occasions'!!! OMG, they are just a nice time to have a party, get friends together, and celebrate the past years and toast the coming years. That's all. Very surprised at how much importance people attach to birthdays, even grown-up people who should know better.

Like a pp said, a 12 year old is old enough to respect that a friend might need to be with his mother and not go to a party. Wanting to support his mother is not 'flaking out'. It is showing maturity and humanity, not to mention love for his mother. OP your son sounds lovely. I do see what some posters are saying about your ds missing out on things, but your time together sounds precious and lovely, from your description.

sashh · 11/02/2016 06:30

This is the kind of thing where the school would like to say 'you deserved that punch' but of course can't.

Violence is an automatic exclusion, but they have done just that, one day only, no follow up, not integration, no report - this is pure - "we have to exclude you, violence is never acceptable but we totally understand your POV"

As for the other child - no they won't tell you, but a one day exclusion is easily over with, other punishments such as report can last a week or two nd actually be more of a punishment for a child.

IguanaTail · 11/02/2016 06:55

Igauna I don't think the OP's son should have been punished less I think the other boy should have been punished more.

You don't know how the other boy was punished. Neither does the OP. Neither do I. As sashh says, there are lots of things they can do.

Marniasmum · 11/02/2016 14:32

I think the other boy should have been punished more
The other boy has been punished by having his face stoved in! The Op's DS is lucky that the other parents didn't go to the police.Her DS maybe needs to reflect on how the worry of him standing trial would have affected his mum's recovery

LeLeFox · 11/02/2016 16:20

Marnia lucky that the police wasn't involved for hitting him? The other kid's parents would be a fool to get the police involved, teaching the kid that the other boy was in the wrong... He was a little shit for no reason

Marniasmum · 11/02/2016 16:30

If it had been a girl who had said it, would it have been ok for him to hit her?

LeLeFox · 11/02/2016 16:38

Marnia - why would it be any different? If she had said that, I would treat my son the same and wouldn't tell him off

Marniasmum · 11/02/2016 16:59

Really so if a girlfriend in another 3 or 4 years says something to provoke him, he can slap her?