At the pool - other adult behavior

[CousCousDefinitely]

I was at our local leisure centre today. It's a private hotel one, if it makes a difference, so it's users would be a combination of members, hotel guests and you can also pay for a day pass. I'm a member.
It was busy as it is normally on a Saturday afternoon. There were two guys I hadn't seen before in the lanes section (where you can do serious swimming, up one side and down the other). I wanted to do 50 or so lengths but it was tricky as it was me and them in the section and they were doing handstands, diving in (under the no diving sign) and generally getting in the way. I get this with children sometimes but not usually adults in their 30s or 40s.
Im laid back so I just sort of went around them as best I could. They were swimming under me and making me nervous. So after about 20 lengths I gave up.
I went into the steamroom and they arrived in about 10 minutes after and stared at me up and down in a pervy uncomfortable way.
So they it clicked that the pool annoyance was probably on purpose.
I left and was pissed off that it made me felt so uncomfortable.
I was pissed off that I couldn't do anything to stop them staring, that they'd intrrupted my swim and that I couldnt complain to the lifeguard while I was there as it would have been awkward, or as I was leaving as I didn't want to appear racist. The two guys were speaking Arabic to each other which is pretty uncommon in my town.
My dh went to the pool after I got home, for his turn at a bit of child free peace and I described them to him. He came back and said they were in the hot tub (this was 2 hours after me) so they'd probably got a day pass and stayed to piss off more people.
Was I unreasonable to just leave and say nothing and if so, what should I have done or said? Either to them or to the lifeguard. I feel like such a chicken.

''I'm not a racist but..'' brigade on here have actually read the Quran, or had a conversation with a Muslm about Islam, rather than basing their 'intelligence' on the subject on fear and ignorance

I might qualify here in the narrow and bigoted way it was meant but I don't care because I'm not a racist.

I went to a Muslim school in Saudi and I lived and worked in the Middle East for decades. I can read and write Arabic and am studied the Koran for two hours each day for a year.

I've also witnessed some very intimidating, sexually aggressive behaviour as well as heard (and understood) some horribly racist and mysoginist comments from Muslim men using swimming pools in both the Middle East and Europe.

I hope, (and given recent abuse by economic migrants of the welcome extended to Syrian refugees, it's possible these instances will become more common) that this sort of sexual intimidation does not happen to anyone on this thread or to your daughters.

And if it does, I hope that the authorities and law enforcement agencies extend a little more kindness, belief and empathy than has been shown on this thread to a women who has felt uncomfortable in a swimming pool.

I am truly saddened at the minimising, denial, victim blaming and knee-jerk ignorance that has been displayed, especially the poster who demanded language credentials. But not surprised, because that it how our press and politicians have trained the public to react.

And it's a shame that so few people can recognise that it's a cultural and gender-based issue, otherwise we'd all be frothing for the intimidating groups of women to stop sexually harassing European, Hindu and Sikh women and chosen.

"Travel to any Islamic country and there really is no comparison. Groping, touching, staring and crude propositions are on a whole other level and is constant and daily. Many posters on other threads have attested to this and it's not just Western or uncovered women being harassed, but veiled one's too."

Yes we have problems in the UK, rape and abuse etc and I do worry that the negative focus on Muslims and migrants is blown out of proportion due to some agenda- but I've spent time travelling in some Islamic countries when I was younger and please don't gaslight us on this issue. The way unaccompanied women, especially western women are treated on a daily basis - the leering, groping, staring etc is nothing like what we are used to in the UK. Please stop saying it is - it is NOT the same.

Nope that's not actually Bill - the opposite in fact - I don't assume anyone IS or IS NOT an abuser based on their race or religion - that's called being open minded and treating each case as unique and individual.

ghosty, I really wish you would stop referring to Rotherham, because you clearly know sod all about it.

Rotherham had very, very little to do with any assumptions on who was or wasn't an abuser depending on what group they belonged to. It has to do with authorities not caring whether or not people were abusers based on the group they belonged to. There is no evidence that CSE crimes in Rotherham committed by white people were covered up, ignored, hushed up, silenced by the authorities. Ditto CSE crimes committed by Kashmiris against Kashmiris.

However crimes committed by Kashmiris against girls of other races (mainly white, but including to my knowledge also black and far eastern girls also) were hushed up, silenced. If the phoned the police, they were ignored, if they called social services the same happened. If parents tried to rescue their daughters themselves they were frequently arrested and their daughters returned to their abusers. There are even accounts of the police finding a man in his 30s in bed with an underage girl and ignoring him but arresting the child for being drunk and disorderly. When a charity (Risky Business) began exposing the crimes it was closed down.

Before you spout anymore misinformed bilge on Rotherham I suggest you sit down and read the Jay and Casey reports, some of Andrew Norfolks work and the accounts of the survivors. The covered up crimes were on an industrial scale, 1,400 girls plus. And the reports are quite clear that these crimes were committed by Asian males.

The Catholic Church cases were very, very similar. One group was given a free pass to abuse on the basis that it was inconvenient for political reasons to acknowledge that particular group might be committing crimes. So it was again, ignored, hushed up, hidden by the authorities and the communities around them.

The difference is that the Catholic Church and it's supporters have very much been forced to face up to what happened, stop hiding it and take responsibility for it and stop it happening again.

Abuse cases which happen within Muslim communities much less so. There is still denial, hushing up, covering up, deflection. For example I've never heard anybody excuse a Catholic priest by saying child sex abuse is widespread throughout the world, so we shouldn't be singling out abuse by priests as a Catholic problem or the cover up as one rooted in Catholic culture.

Just today a Muslim councillor in Keighley admitted that there are people in her community who feel that the child victim of gang rape was to blame for the attacks on her. Last week there were Sonalis intimidating the family of a gang rape victim outside a court. There were attempts to hush up Cologne. The select committee report on CSE acknowledged that when Keighley MP Anne Cryer tried to talk about Asian grooming gangs in 2002 the subsequent finger pointing and cries of racism (which essentially were exactly the same in nature as many on this thread) set the investigation back for a decade because it became forbidden to discuss it because it was 'racist'. And hence thousands of girls were abused.

Until (like the Catholic Church) it's acknowledged that some sections of society have a problem with this sort of abuse which stems from cultural attitude, and forced out of denial into confronting that, it will never change.

We seem to have got to a stage where we have to tiptoe round with our words for fear of being accused of racism. The OP said they were speaking Arabic and appeared Muslim, and they were making a nuisance of themselves. Why can't that be enough. All this "how do know it was Arabic" nonsense is unnecessary.

"The difference is that the Catholic Church and it's supporters have very much been forced to face up to what happened, stop hiding it and take responsibility for it and stop it happening again.

Abuse cases which happen within Muslim communities much less so. There is still denial, hushing up, covering up, deflection. For example I've never heard anybody excuse a Catholic priest by saying child sex abuse is widespread throughout the world, so we shouldn't be singling out abuse by priests as a Catholic problem or the cover up as one rooted in Catholic culture."

I agree that that totally goes on but, To be fair - many white victims or rape and abuse get treated like this if they are considered irresponsible, lower class, drunk, promiscuous etc - especially if the rapist/ abuser is white (and successful). Look at Ched Evans and the constant belittling of girls and women as liars and making false claims you often see in the media comments and other sites. Many of these same people suddenly jump to the victims defence as a soon as the alleged rapist is known to be Muslim or an immigrant etc. Then the girl/ woman is seen as being a poor victim.

Bambambini, the justice system and conviction rates around sexual offences do leave a lot to be desired.

But these cases just aren't comparable. It's not a case of cases being badly investigated or insensitively handled. It was a systematic cover up over decades which was largely motivated by race.

The Ched Evans case was fully investigated and went to court. If Ched Evans had been a Kashmiri in Rotherham circa 2005, it's extremely likely there would even have been a crime report filed had she reported it.

!Anthony have a read about the Roman Catholic Church and their "issues" with child abuse, and women as secondary citizens. And also the Irish Laundries"

YES. And if there had been cries of anti Irish or Catholiphobia every time someone spoke up about those laundries and ppl were shut down from speaking about it or campaigning against it i have no doubt that they would still be in operation today.

Bill i am so sorry to hear about the case upthread

I would like to bring your attention to this thread and in particular, this link here

David Davies MP registering on MN and starting this thread was a direct result of the long running group of threads on the Cologne sexual assaults and what they mean for the future of women's sexual safety in Europe. They are long and there are lots of them, but I do urge you to read them if you haven't already.

If you can't be bothered to read the whole first thread linked in which Mr Davies does an (unofficial unendorsed by MNHQ) web chat then let me just C&P these three posts for you to think about:

From David Davies MP 'How can we make sure that the men coming from these regions have more enlightened attitudes?'

From Lumela to DD 'That's what we're asking you, David: are there any processes in train in the EU that you know about to either screen migrants/refugees, and ensure that core European values are upheld? Is there any chance that these could be at least discussed by the sort of cross-party group that Jo suggests?'

From David Davies MP 'Lumela: NO! There are no processes in place - unless you count handing out posters to asylum seekers in swimming pools with cartoon images showing that they should not put their hands into women's bikinis. What a joke.'

MNHQ was asked to host an official web chat with David Davies and they refused. I can see why. It's no secret that they have very left wing leanings and long founded links to the Guardian. This whole issue makes them very uncomfortable and represents a significant conflict of political interests for MNHQ, the reasons for which will take a whole other thread to explore. Personally I for one think it's worth exploring and putting them on the spot over, but that again if for another thread.

This is incident in the pool was not in the OP's mind. I BELIEVE HER. Just because no actual, provable physical assault took place does not mean that she imagined the sinister and sleazy way in which she was stalked around the pool and made to feel uncomfortable for being a woman in a bathing suit. This is a very real thing. And a thing we are going to have to take our collective heads out of our arses and deal with and stop pussyfooting around for fear of being called racist.

Well it's lovely and laudible and also slightly naive that you don't think that zzzzz good for you. Sadly, we must acknowledge that on the specific issue of violence and unwanted sexual attention aimed at non-covered women by men from largely Muslim cultures, you are just plain wrong.

Uncomfortable as it may be to say it out loud, stereotypes happen for a reason. They take years to stamp out and become irrelevant because it can take generations for certain cultural behaviours and thought processes to dilute themselves as newly arrived groups of people eventually assimilate and adapt, if indeed they ever do.

We should not stereotype individual people in individual circumstances, I agree that would be wrong. That doesn't mean we should not acknowledge and accept that there are huge challenges ahead in attempting to absorb into our mainstream society large numbers of Muslims (and particularly Muslim men) who have come from backgrounds where women do not have anything like the same levels of respect, freedom, autonomy and equality as they do here now. We need to be on our toes about making sure we do not tolerate the importation of backward attitudes and offensive behaviour towards women here.

This is not about ethnicity btw, it's about misogynistic cultural attitudes and a sense of male entitlement and superiority than comes from having their roots firmly planted (mostly but not always) in Islam, outside of a system that has ever challenged it.

that comes from, not than

Zzzz

Can i ask where you were and who you were with?

By gaslighting i mean evertime tells of their experience of some muslim countries, you and a few others say hw it happens just the same in the UK - it just isn't the same.

I've thought twice about posting on this thread as i worry it will turn into anti muslim thread.

No, i meant which muslim countries you were in where you had no problems at all and who you were with. Of course i was treated repectfully by a lot of muslim men but the casual and frequent harrassement and assault was attrocious.

I think its safe to say there are issues that are uncomfortable but are of concern to the female population in the UK. To deny them is dangerous. I live in an area afflicted and there is a massive difference in how middle eastern men and Pakistani men treat women- I see it with my own eyes; I encounter it in my work. To deny it shuts down debate. A massive amount of integration needs to happen from all sides cos things are not good from where I'm standing and I'm scared.

It isn't naive or world weary to state your own experiences.

So it's fine for you to describe your own experiences, but when somebody else does it and it involves a group you feel are 'protected' you get all cross? Righty ho, very balanced and fair then.

Also no one is saying the UK/US have always been perfect either. Go back to the 1950s and women got patted on the bottom at work etc on a regular basis (and of course some of us are groped even today - it was an ex MP at a business meeting who at the end asked me if I "wanted a bonk" fairly recently - idiot). But by and large we have improved here. That is not the case in many states abroad and the risk when eg my area of London changes so that my son is the only white boy in his class this year (private school that is) is that he ends up being the only feminist at his lunch table - he loves a good argument and wants to be a lawyer so it's good training but it's fascinating becoming the minority in your own area and your enlightened liberal better views suddenly becoming rare - I have of chosen not to move with white flight and have not moved to a posher bit of white London (they exist) so my choice and I have no problems with living in a mixed culture but the lunch debate does illustrate the impact - if everyone is from a culture where on the whole women don't work or if they do it is in some kind of very low pay and men are the big boss who earn the money and add to that religious values which give men more say then you get problems for women.

I am seeing a lot of similarities with the FLDS book I just read - where men are the head of the household (Christian) and women obey them and at age 12 your son also has some supremacy over you.

If we import a lot of people with those views then our own culture may change for the worse.

On the whole I think the Uk has benefited from immigration but I do think the kinds of people who are coming in are not feminist enough often due both to their culture and religion. The UK has moved now to a country where most people do not believe in God which is a very good thing but could be stopped in its tracks if we import the cultural views of rural farmers from Pakistan and the Middle East.

"I agree that Christianity is oppressive towards women"
Usual Mumsnet claptrap.
It was the convents who gave girls an opportunity for education long before the Suffragette movement.

You have to report to lifeguard right away, tell him/her to get the men out of the serious swimming lane as they are not swimming.

You could also report to reception, they will have CCTV and could have photos of those two dick head men and get them banned.

The UK has moved now to a country where most people do not believe in God which is a very good thing
And the evidence of this is all around us. How utterly depressing.

surprising you use convents to highlight that Christianity is not oppressive towards women

maybe have you forgotten how terribly women who were pregnant and unmarried were so cruelly treated often in convents and this is recent history why because they were women who sinned

"Why diddnt you just move to another part of the pool? when they got in the hot tub why diddnt you get out and get back in the pool if they made you feel uncomfy?"

I know the thread has moved on since this post on the first page or so but it is this attitude that scares me. It is basically saying that women should adapt to being harassed in public rather than force the men doing the harassing to change. To complain is unreasonable apparently.

Why should the OP have to move to a part of the pool that is not suitable for swimming laps so that these men can mess around? Why should she have to leave the steam room because men are staring at her? It's bollox.

It's a dangerous attitude to have. What next? Women shouldn't be going swimming at all? To do so is asking for trouble. Women should be accompanied by a male relative at all times to stay safe? Fuck that