New abortion scare tactics *sensitive warning, photo included*

[NeedACleverNN]

This is doing the rounds on fb at the moment.

Seriously

I'm in favour of abortion from the child's point of view. Every child deserves to be wanted and most women who abort, abort because they feel they are not in a position to give a child what that child would need.

Unfortunately a lot of the pro-life way of thinking is that women should have children as a punishment for their "immoral" acts and, to my mind, no child should be brought into the world as a punishment for their parent.

Let's look after the children who are here and support parents.

I'm in favour of abortion from the child's point of view. I think this is possibly the silliest thing ive heard on mn. Despite being personally against abortion I accept that there is a need for it. But lets not kid ourselves that unborn children want to die. They have no point of view (other than trying to develop within their mother's womb) or say. Abortions are all about the mother's needs. I could even try and be generous and say id understand if your were coming from the point of view of a terminally ill child (in the womb) who has no chance of survival outside the womb. But because they wont be loved? Who knows what any future holds for any unborn child? Or making the offensive suggestion that it would have been doing unloved children a favour if they were killed before birth. (Im coming from the point of view of someone who was 'unloved' and abused as a child. Im glad im still alive.

harrass I'm sorry but I agree with atenco. I have said this before on MN but my Dad was born to 15 and 17 year old parents before abortion was illegal in this country. His mum had a nervous breakdown and his dad fucked off sharpish when he did his national service and never came back. As a result he spent some time in 1940s care (not quite what it is today- a proper full on orphanage where he was left to sit in a urine soaked cot for days at a time with six or seven other small children) and then ended up living with some distant relations who didn't much want him and who bullied and physically and sexually abused him. He grew up to have a lot of trouble forming relationships, was promiscuous and abused drink and drugs .

Eventually married my Mum and had a much better life from then on but still had panic attacks and depression. He had a full on nervous breakdown in his 40s as a direct result of his shitty childhood. He has anxiety issues as a result too which he has passed down to me and my sister. It's a full on "sins of the fathers will be revisited on the sons" situation.

Of course I'm glad from a personal and selfish POV that he was aborted because otherwise I wouldn't be alive but don't tell me that that seventy years of suffering- as well as his mothers suffering, she went mad and went on to have four more kids, all went into care- isn't something you'd like to see avoided via the choice of abortion.

UareWhatUeat

As someone who has had a 'late' post 20 week 'abortion' (I think the term tfmr is better tbh)

Surgical termination isn't allowed after 16 weeks (pretty sure that's right) after that you take medication to induce birth.

If you're really lucky like me and get a lethal diagnosis after 21 weeks you have the joy of going to a specialist medical facility (like kings) to have an injection to stop their heart. It's the kindest way.

You are then induced and give birth to a still born baby. My labour was 5 hours start to finish.

My 22 week dd2 was about a well formed as that '12 week' foetus but without as much facial definition.

There is a lot of scaremongering and total inaccuracy around termination, especially late terminations.

We also need to understand that a diagnosis, for example t21 is a favourite, does not describe the issues for every baby. Yes some children with t21 have happy and fulfilling lives, some also have such anomalies that their diagnosis is lethal. Yes some babies with t18 can live to a few years, many have anomalies that mean they will never be born alive.

The problem with the debate is that people like to see things in simple black and white. Life isn't like that. And lots of people fair to see or even understand the subtleties around it. That and some also seem to be lacking a basic knowledge of biology (many of the pro life groups spreading these images)

Kitty I'm sorry for your loss xxx thank you for your post - people need to understand the reality

I don't usually discuss this, but I had a late term abortion. I was nearly twenty four weeks. It was an incredibly difficult decision. I don't wish to discuss the circumstances, but they were dire.

Images like this do no good to anyone. Fortunately, I have had long enough to come to terms with my situation that things like this no longer cause me huge amounts of distress. But there are others who are in the earlier stages of grief who will be devastated to see this. Even obviously unrealistic images like this.

The decision to terminate at late stages where the baby has developed to a recognisable state is not taken lightly. Ever. But the fact that it has to be a decision made by the mother is burden enough without attempts to add further guilt.

And I agree that it is in the child's best interests in many cases. My child would have been almost a teenager now. No one would care anymore at that age.

It's a natural instinct to want to protect a baby. Not so much the teenager, nor the adult.

It's a sad fact that there are so many unhappy children. If only the same anger existed about their plight.

Hear hear Owl

no I still dont agree, even though your father had a hellish life. His abuse didn't stem from not being aborted but because there are shitty people doing shitty things in life. But you cant say that an unborn child is guaranteed to be abused/have a shitty life (not sure how in this country you could predict that) and that that child would choose to be aborted/should therefore be aborted. Women have abortions but lets not kid ourselves that it is about the children because its not, its about the pregnant woman and how her life will be affected. Otherwise suicide would be a perfectly legal and legitimate option for anyone who has suffered in their life. (Although I can perfectly understand how someone who has been abused can feel like that, i would never condone it. I'd hope that person got the serious help they required)

And yes, I'd have loved a 4d image of my dd2 before I 'aborted her'.

People need to also think carefully about the 'medical reasons' argument. I was told dd2 probably wouldn't make it to birth but she might, she might have died in labour, she might have died a few hours, days, weeks or months later (realistically for her it would have been hours)

There are babies with t18 who have lived months and some even years. It is still a lethal diagnosis.

I made the choice that I think was right for my Dd. I would have loved to meet her, hold her alive and spend a few hours with her but the docs couldn't guarantee that her short life wouldn't be one of pain and struggling. However, she could have survived for months on the off chance.

What limited life do you draw the line at? Hours, days, months?

See, it is a much, much more complicated debate than the glib 'it's ok in cases of rape and medical anomolies' attitude.

And dd2 wasn't just some aborted foetus, she was a loved, much wanted little girl who is part of our family and always will be. The choice I made (and i know a few others with the same diagnosis who chose very different paths, I consider them good mn 'friends' now) was right for me, my family and my Dd.

People don't have terminations at 20+ weeks because they've changed their minds.

harrass I respect your view but I think it's naive. I think you'd feel differently if you loved and were close to someone like my Dad who's life started being that unwanted by anyone.

I have reported this thread to MN because IMO it isn't sufficiently clear in the OP that the image is fake and that an actual 12 week foetus looks nothing like that. (See the Snopes links for what it actually looks like).

I'd like MN to make this clear in the title or OP so nobody is misled if they just read the OP and first few replies.

Thank you, Narp.

I don't talk about this to anyone. Not a soul. But for anyone that may have been in the same situation and is reading this and afraid to speak, you are not alone.

Of course, the future is not certain. But we make the best decision we can with the facts available to us.

Owl 💐 For you.

Does it matter a reason for abortions? Be it medical, incovenient, gender etc. Abortion is abortion. The procedure was carried out as it was deemed necessary for the wellbeing of the mother or the baby was sadly incompatible with life. I dont understand how there can be a heirarchy of reasoning, that its somehow more acceptable to abort a baby who is the product of rape over say because its the wrong sex.

Felloutofbed, as a child i was abused. Sexually, emotionally, physically and mentally. I lived most of my childhood steeped in fear. But that doesnt give me (legally) the right to commit suicide to end my life, far less someone else to decide for me that I would have been better off dead before I was born.

Harassed I'm by no means saying there should be a hierarchy, I am totally pro choice.

However, I hear lots of pro lifers talk about no abortion unless in cases of rape or lethal diagnosis. The subtleties of these need to be addressed by pro lifers.

Anti abortion people tend to find people like me uncomfortable, I'm not the evil woman who got rid of her child because it did t fit in with my lifestyle. They don't quite know where to put me. I grieve for my dd2, I always will. But I chose to end her life rather than let her die. That doesn't fit well into the black and white, right and wrong slots anti abortion people like.

And just also to say that personally i think its too slippery a slope, citing possible (?) future abuse of a child to justify abortions.

Thanks again to you, kitty.

For the purposes of disclosure, it's a horrific procedure. It's painful. It's terrifying. It took a lot of bravery for me to go through it. Yes, bravery.

The mother does not get off lightly in these circumstances. It's something that took me years to recover from.

There was a young girl there with me at the time. I can never forget her screams. That's who you are judging. That poor little thing.

Er, harassed, suicide was decriminalised in the UK in 1961.

I'm sorry, truly, for everything you went through as a child

felloutofbedtwice as an illegitimate 'war baby' myself, of probably much the same era as your father, I was put into care by my birth mother following abuse by my stepfather, at the age of about two years.
I then spent two years in a 1940's orphanage, and have to say I was treated with love and kindness, and remember with warmth, my time there. They weren't all bad. There have always been kind people. Your poor father was very unfortunate.

I would also like to say that as a woman who has never had to consider an abortion, I was very moved by the picture of the genuine 12 week old foetus. I did not realise it would look so human.

Kitty, i did say up thread that I was 99.9999% sure i'd never have an abortion. I reserve that .0001% because I think I would possible have a termination if either (a) carrying the baby was guaranteed to be physically fatal to my own life or (b) There was no chance that the baby would survive. I wouldnt make abortions illegal but i dont think i can so easily gloss over abortions being for the sake of the child. I dont know if there is a hierarchy or not, i guess its subjective, abortions not a black and white issue. If it was i suppose abortions would be acceptable up to full time labour without any reasons require other than thats what the mother wanted (and to be clear i would vehemently oppose that).

dejar yeah I think he was seriously unfortunate. A lot of bad luck didn't help his situation. I'm not saying for a second that I think he would be better off dead at all, I just think he endured a lot of suffering and no one thinks of the suffering those unwanted children will potentially face when the abortion question comes up.

harrassed as PP said suicide is definitely legal in the uk. Where are you?

Yes owl, I agree, it is traumatic, very painful and the shittiest end.

I think people assume you go to hospital, get put to sleep and leave a few hours later un pregnant and pain free (I know this is the case for some women in the case of early surgical terminations)

I just with people would consider the grey areas and educate themselves.